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Author Topic:   Question: Why did animals have to die in the great flood?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 16 of 47 (786884)
06-28-2016 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Archangel
06-28-2016 6:29 PM


I can absolutely promise you and every other secular humanist that upon the very first second after you physically die you will immediately realize that you completely missed the boat in life where the truth of why you existed was concerned. And at that very same second you will understand that you spent a wasted life ignoring, mocking and blaspheming the living God who lovingly created you in His image.
Sounds like Allah is gonna be mad at you and Tangle.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 47 (786885)
06-28-2016 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Archangel
06-28-2016 6:02 PM


It is verse 5 specifically that theologians believe implies that by sinning against Birds, Beasts, Reptiles and Fish that fallen angels corrupted their genetic code and caused them to also become giants rather than the way Yahweh created them originally.
I don't see any descriptions of giant animals. Beyond that, did not the giant folks actually survive the flood? Aren't they mentioned in Numbers as inhabiting Canaan? Something seems pretty bogus about your interpretation, but perhaps I missed something. Could you expound a bit more on the link between the text and your conclusion.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

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jar
Member
Posts: 34054
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 18 of 47 (786886)
06-28-2016 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
06-28-2016 6:46 PM


Re: Bible Study vs Critical Thinking 101
The answer is that it made a good story. It is the god character in the story setting up a plot device to introduce the concept of a new beginning.
It's much like the absurd Exodus saga, stories written to earn a nights lodging and a meal or three.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Archangel
Member (Idle past 1439 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 19 of 47 (786887)
06-28-2016 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tangle
06-28-2016 6:38 PM


Tangle Wrote
Concentrate. We're talking about a global flood about 4,000 years ago. That’s a matter of fact and evidence -
Tell me Tangle, what evidence do you have that the global flood occurred around 4,000 years ago? Please produce it before stating that it’s a matter of fact and evidence.
Also, it is obvious you haven’t read my post regarding chapters 6 and 7 from the book of Enoch; or you are unaware that the book of Enoch isn’t found in the Old or New Testament but is a stand alone ancient manuscript that was never accepted as part of the inspired canonical bible.
It is respected and taken seriously because of who Enoch was as a Patriarch.

If the rabble continues to occupy itself with you, then simply don’t read that hogwash, but rather leave it to the reptile for whom it has been fabricated.
Albert Einstein

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 20 of 47 (786888)
06-28-2016 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
06-28-2016 9:25 PM


Re: Bible Study vs Critical Thinking 101
so in your opinion and belief many of the biblical stories were not inspired by anything other than humans trying to survive by telling stories? No wonder you think that GOD is eternally unknowable.
The issue in my mind is whether GOD has ever interacted with humanity...such as the tablets on the mountain...or whether that too was a story invented by humans to control/influence/impress other humans.
Of course the evidence shows that the great flood was a myth. It is a relief to me, since a GOD that would have to allow such an event would be in my mind rather limited.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

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jar
Member
Posts: 34054
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 21 of 47 (786892)
06-29-2016 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
06-28-2016 10:31 PM


Re: Bible Study vs Critical Thinking 101
So far the evidence is that most of the Bible stories are folk tales. The Flood never happened, Exodus never happened, the Conquest of Canaan never happened, there was no Garden of Eden, but that does not mean there is not things to be learned from the stories.
The two Biblical Flood myths serve a purpose, of a God that regrets creating life and so purges it saving only the select few; the Chosen Ones; a who then later swears to never repeat that act of wanton destruction. It's a very human God, similar to all other rulers, capricious and destructive but then returning to rationality. And it allowed a people to claim preference and superiority; from the God they created if not from the rest of the world, the universe and reality.
Remember, the Hebrews were never a significant power, never respected, never relevant except within their own mythos and mythology.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Archangel
Member (Idle past 1439 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 22 of 47 (786893)
06-29-2016 12:23 AM


You history deniers and naysayers always insist that THE EVIDENCE PROVES THE GREAT FLOOD NEVER OCCURRED. But you never provide the evidence for your fallacious conclusion. The fact is that valid science is NOT so quick to reject Noah’s flood. Check these links out.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=we...
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=we...
And from the second link:
Now Ballard is using even more advanced robotic technology to travel farther back in time. He is on a marine archeological mission that might support the story of Noah. He said some 12,000 years ago, much of the world was covered in ice.
"Where I live in Connecticut was ice a mile above my house, all the way back to the North Pole, about 15 million kilometers, that's a big ice cube," he said. "But then it started to melt. We're talking about the floods of our living history."
The water from the melting glaciers began to rush toward the world's oceans, Ballard said, causing floods all around the world.
"The questions is, was there a mother of all floods," Ballard said.
According to a controversial theory proposed by two Columbia University scientists, there really was one in the Black Sea region. They believe that the now-salty Black Sea was once an isolated freshwater lake surrounded by farmland, until it was flooded by an enormous wall of water from the rising Mediterranean Sea. The force of the water was two hundred times that of Niagara Falls, sweeping away everything in its path.
Fascinated by the idea, Ballard and his team decided to investigate.
"We went in there to look for the flood," he said. "Not just a slow moving, advancing rise of sea level, but a really big flood that then stayed... The land that went under stayed under."
Four hundred feet below the surface, they unearthed an ancient shoreline, proof to Ballard that a catastrophic event did happen in the Black Sea. By carbon dating shells found along the shoreline, Ballard said he believes they have established a timeline for that catastrophic event, which he estimates happened around 5,000 BC. Some experts believe this was around the time when Noah's flood could have occurred.
We can look at various parts of the world and see evidence of cataclysmic flooding having occurred long ago. I look at the Grand Canyon and can imagine it being carved from mountains of torrential water. I’m just saying, he who assumes he has all the answers is usually proven wrong.
The fact is that anything that doesn’t fit into your shallow and limited world view is dismissed out of hand as fiction and myth. And rather than attempting to understand these mysteries you just run away from them like scared children who must cling to the fraudulent cult of evolution as if it was a valid religion.
Check out these images of ancient megalithic structures found underwater all over the world.
ancient megalithic underwater structures - Google Search
Edited by Archangel, : for added content:

If the rabble continues to occupy itself with you, then simply don’t read that hogwash, but rather leave it to the reptile for whom it has been fabricated.
Albert Einstein

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 23 of 47 (786895)
06-29-2016 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Archangel
06-29-2016 12:23 AM


Ballard believes (or believed) that the flood story is a distorted recollection of the flooding of the Black Sea. Doubtless some animals died, perhaps many if the flooding was catastrophic (that is uncertain)
From your images you will see a lot of images of Heracleion and nearby cities in Egypt which sank in historic times and a lot of natural formations which resemble buildings. And none of them have any connection to the Black Sea Flood, or indicate that there was a flood which covered the entire world.
You might note that the Black Sea and the various other sites are all still underwater, so they can hardly show flooding at sites currently above sea level.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 24 of 47 (786897)
06-29-2016 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Archangel
06-29-2016 12:23 AM


We can look at various parts of the world and see evidence of cataclysmic flooding having occurred long ago.
What we cannot find is evidence of a global flood.
I look at the Grand Canyon and can imagine it being carved from mountains of torrential water.
Also you can look at the moon and imagine that it's made of cheese.
---
Maybe you'd better just stick with the theology.

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 25 of 47 (786899)
06-29-2016 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Archangel
06-28-2016 9:34 PM


Archangel writes:
Tell me Tangle, what evidence do you have that the global flood occurred around 4,000 years ago? Please produce it before stating that it’s a matter of fact and evidence.
Science's position is that there is no evidence of a global flood in either the geological or biological record, period. The imaginary date of it is therefore moot. However, the concensus date as made up by creationist is around 4,000 years. If you have another imaginary date, it too will be irrelevant without your proof of it actually occurring. That proof does not include it being written in a book of fairy stories.
ACCORDING TO ANCIENT JEWISH HISTORIAN JOSEPHUS, along with Irish archbishop and chronologist James Ussher, Bible historians and most conservative Christian scholars, the Flood of Noah's time occurred between 2500 BC and 2300 BC probably close to 2348 BC.
Welcome creationtips.com - Hostmonster.com
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

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Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 26 of 47 (786900)
06-29-2016 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archangel
06-26-2016 5:50 AM


I think that God must have decided that the best way to start afresh was to kill everything he wanted to: and so he did.
It boils down to him doing it because he wanted to. It may not be moral but he is not bound by morality as we see it because by definition anything he does is Good (even though it is not Good from a human perspective).
To beleive in the God of the Bible (rather than cherry picking the bits of his character that fit with one's own expectations) is to take the rough with the smooth.
It's a bit like being proud to be British. Over the years Great Britain has brought many positive things to the world but to deny that it has also been involved in many, many atrocities is to ignore a significant part of history.
Edited by Larni, : Do they still have DVD extras? Are they bluray extras?

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 996
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 27 of 47 (786909)
06-29-2016 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
06-28-2016 9:25 PM


Re: Bible Study vs Critical Thinking 101
The answer is that it made a good story. It is the god character in the story setting up a plot device to introduce the concept of a new beginning.
And the story itself is actually borrowed from a Sumerian tale. There was a merchant who protected his livestock and possessions by putting them on his barge when the Euphrates (or Tigris) rivers flooded. As one can obviously see, the parallels between that story (whether totally real or otherwise) are obvious.
The stories of Gilgamesh were passed down through the centuries, along with stories and myths from other sources and eventually morphed into the biblical stories.
The Bible ultimately is a compendium of stories from different authors from different sources. Much of its mythos shares parallels with other legends and myths in other religions. Which is understandable. One of the best ways to get followers to your new religion is the familiar. Having stories or myths that share a common theme with ones that those individuals might be familiar with can sway them to your faith. Greek mythology also shares many parallels between Christianity and the Greek pantheon. The concept of an 'underworld' with a malevolent individual watching over the dead. Hades, meet Satan. The idea of a 'son of god'. Perseus, Heracles, meet Jesus of Nazareth.
In the end, as Tangle alluded to, how one interprets the meaning is up to them. For those of us that are non-believers, I simply look at these as stories. Either completely made up or derived from actual events and then exaggerated or modified to fit the current narrative.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 28 of 47 (786914)
06-29-2016 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archangel
06-26-2016 5:50 AM


If God had to wipe out humanity because of the stain of sin and start over with a more pure version through Noah's bloodline, my question is what was the corruption infecting humanity that made this cleansing necessary ...
Well, the Bible says "The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence." Obviously the best cure for violence is genocide. Killing everyone doesn't just solve the problem, it sets such a good example.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 47 (786915)
06-29-2016 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
06-28-2016 6:29 PM


Re: Symbolism and Metaphor
I prefer,however, to see the Creator of all seen and unseen as unchanging and eternally wise and omniscient.
And yet, in the Flood story the Lord had regret...
Such a Creator would make no mistakes and would allow parables, metaphors and symbolism to be written so as to teach the people certain precepts and lessons from the stories.
But it is written as if it really happened. Was Noah a real person or was he a fictional character in a metaphor?
While many of the Biblical inerrency crowd insist--despite evidence to the contrary--that a global flood actually occurred, I prefer to view the whole story metaphorically.
How's that work though? In the comprehensive story of the Old Testament, where does the metaphor end and where does the real world begin?
I don't see how you can isolate the Flood as a metaphor and not have it as part of a larger story that was taken to be real.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 30 of 47 (786916)
06-29-2016 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Archangel
06-29-2016 12:23 AM


Looking for evidence to support your a priori beliefs is not a path to truth. Confirmation bias will lead you astray.
Instead of looking for things that you'd expect to see if there was the Flood, you should look for ways to falsify that the Flood occurred and see where they lead you. If you are unable to falsify it, then you can be more confident that it did happen. Just looking for things that fit the narrative shouldn't get you there.
We know without a doubt that the planet has not been covered in water since humans have been here. The lack of a genetic bottleneck proves this.
No matter how much things look like they might have been caused by the Flood, we already know that it literally never happened as described in the Bible. If it stemmed from an actual event, it would have to have been a local flood rather than a global one.
That is not me being a history denier nor a naysayer, that is me being a realistic Christian.

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