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Author Topic:   Question: Why did animals have to die in the great flood?
ringo
Member (Idle past 494 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 31 of 47 (786928)
06-29-2016 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by NoNukes
06-28-2016 9:12 PM


NoNukes writes:
... did not the giant folks actually survive the flood?
In the Giant Bible, Giant Noah built a giant ark. Probably the dinosaurs were on it. Unfortunately, the Giant Bible was lost when the Giant Library at Giant Alexandria was destroyed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by NoNukes, posted 06-28-2016 9:12 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 32 of 47 (786943)
06-29-2016 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Diomedes
06-29-2016 10:45 AM


Re: Bible Study vs Critical Thinking 101
jar writes:
The two Biblical Flood myths serve a purpose, of a God that regrets creating life and so purges it saving only the select few; the Chosen Ones; a who then later swears to never repeat that act of wanton destruction. It's a very human God, similar to all other rulers, capricious and destructive but then returning to rationality. And it allowed a people to claim preference and superiority; from the God they created if not from the rest of the world, the universe and reality.
You have a point. What I'm attempting to do is to support my belief that GOD is not simply a story invented by humanity.
Larni writes:
To believe in the God of the Bible (rather than cherry picking the bits of his character that fit with one's own expectations) is to take the rough with the smooth.
True. I need to do more reading to see if i can support my primary assertion.
Diomedes writes:
The stories of Gilgamesh were passed down through the centuries, along with stories and myths from other sources and eventually morphed into the biblical stories.
Point taken.
There are other explanations and views, however.
compellingtruth.org writes:
The biblical flood story, found in Genesis 6-9, has many similarities. In both cases, it was a global flood sent by God or gods to control people. God or gods contacted the hero and told him to build an ark of wood covered in pitch. The ark was very large and contained specimens of all animals. The hero determined the end of the ordeal by sending out birds. When the inhabitants of the ark were released, the hero sacrificed to God/the gods, who blessed him.
There are differences, as well. Of course, the Genesis story speaks of God, while the Akkadian mentions several gods. The Akkadian ark was square, while the biblical ark was rectangular. The Akkadian hero saved not only his family, but craftsmen who worked on the ark as well. The biblical rains lasted forty days and nights, while the Akkadian version says six. And the arks landed on different mountains.
What is the relationship between the Akkadian flood myths and the biblical account? Scholars aren't exactly sure. Secular scholars claim that because remnants of the Akkadian account pre-date the writing of Genesis, Moses (or another author) copied from the Akkadian story. But biblical scholars point out that there is no record of a complete flood myth until 650 BC, long after Genesis was written. Other scholars claim that the Akkadian myth copied Genesis, but this is highly unlikely. Genesis was written by 1400 BC while the first Gilgamesh story that references the global flood was apparently from 2100 BC. It's much more probable that both stories derived from the same sourcean actual global flood.
For those of us that are non-believers, I simply look at these as stories. Either completely made up or derived from actual events and then exaggerated or modified to fit the current narrative.
For those of us who are believers, as i am, it is a challenge and a duty to attempt to see if i can actually get inspiration from the stories and if the inspiration is more than simple human-derived stories.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 33 of 47 (786944)
06-29-2016 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
06-29-2016 12:09 AM


Re: Bible Study vs Critical Thinking 101
jar writes:
So far the evidence is that most of the Bible stories are folk tales. The Flood never happened, Exodus never happened, the Conquest of Canaan never happened, there was no Garden of Eden, but that does not mean there is not things to be learned from the stories.
I am interested in learning from GOD, however...not from human foibles. (which i can also learn from...but my point is that I believe GOD speaks to humanity. I am just trying to prove it)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 06-29-2016 12:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 06-29-2016 5:31 PM Phat has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 34 of 47 (786946)
06-29-2016 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
06-29-2016 3:57 PM


Re: Bible Study vs Critical Thinking 101
"compellingtruth.org" doesn't really seem to be making much of a case.
The present version of Genesis may well be more recent than the "complete" version of the story they call Akkadian. And the existence of older fragments surely proves that that story is far older than the oldest surviving complete version. I am sure that they would not date any book of the Bible - or any story in it - in that way!
And how can they possibly conclude that the "most likely" source is an actual global flood ? Certainly not on the evidence given.

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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 996
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(1)
Message 35 of 47 (786947)
06-29-2016 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
06-29-2016 3:57 PM


Re: Bible Study vs Critical Thinking 101
You have a point. What I'm attempting to do is to support my belief that GOD is not simply a story invented by humanity.
Who says you have to? For friends and family of mine who I would consider people of faith, for them, god is not invented by humans but the stories surrounding god and the interpretations thereof are invented. The problem arises when religious fundamentalists focus on the literal versus trying to interpret the message.
For those of us who are believers, as i am, it is a challenge and a duty to attempt to see if i can actually get inspiration from the stories and if the inspiration is more than simple human-derived stories.
As I mentioned, for those that I know who are also spiritual and believers, focusing the meaning of the story or the message it is attempting to convey is probably the better option.
A non-religious example I can provide to convey the concept is the old Star Trek episode called 'Let That Be Your Last Battlefield'. The story revolves around a galactic police officer chasing a fugitive around the galaxy. The two alien individuals have faces that are half-black and half-white. But reversed. Black on the right side for one, white on the right side for the other. And this is the core point of their conflict. In the end, they return to their own planet to realize that the conflict between the two types has resulted in the destruction of their civilization. In the end, they both beam down to the planet and continue to fight, despite realizing that there is nothing left to fight for. Hatred of each other is all they have left.
Now what is the ultimate message here? It's an allegory for racism and a warning to us, indicating that hatred between races will lead to our own demise.
Star Trek is a fictional show. I don't have to believe that Kirk is flying around in the Enterprise to recognize the core message of the stories.

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jar
Member
Posts: 34054
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 36 of 47 (786948)
06-29-2016 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
06-29-2016 4:01 PM


Re: Bible Study vs Critical Thinking 101
Phat writes:
I am interested in learning from GOD, however...not from human foibles. (which i can also learn from...but my point is that I believe GOD speaks to humanity. I am just trying to prove it)
The only way you could prove that is by presenting evidence that could be critically examined.
Where is the evidence that GOD speaks to anyone?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 34054
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 37 of 47 (786949)
06-29-2016 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Diomedes
06-29-2016 4:25 PM


Re: Bible Study vs Critical Thinking 101
Spy vs Spy comes to mind.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2213 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 38 of 47 (786958)
06-29-2016 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archangel
06-26-2016 5:50 AM


archangel writes:
If God had to wipe out humanity because of the stain of sin and start over with a more pure version through Noah's bloodline, my question is what was the corruption infecting humanity that made this cleansing necessary and why did it have to include the destruction of all animal life except 2 creatures of each type that God chose and guided to be saved on the Arc?
Is there any information regarding Gods reasoning in this area either in the bible or in any other holy writings by the Old Testament Patriarchs? In other words, does anybody grasp the full reasoning behind Gods plan for the great flood as it played out in the real world?
I can't think of any specific explanation of this in Scripture. But we see something similar in some of God's commands to wipe out pagan nations. Sometimes they were allowed to take spoils, but at other times they were to wipe out everything, including animals and possessions. Why? We can only speculate. Some of the pagan practices were extremely depraved; perhaps this had affected the animals and possessions.
Another option is given by Gleason Archer in his "Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties":
quote:
The word them seems to include the animals as well as men; what could the animals possibly have done to merit God’s disgust?
So far as the birds and the beasts were concerned, the context of Genesis 6:7 says nothing about their displeasing or angering God; so it is not really justified to interpret the purpose of judgment as directed at them equally with the depraved race of men. It was simply an inevitable consequence of the coming Flood, that it should destroy not only mankind but also all brute creation living in man’s environment. The intended antecedent of them was really the preceding man (Heb. ha’adam)in the sense of the human racerather than the various orders of bird and beast that are listed with man. Actually, God’s solicitude for the survival of all these various species of animal and bird found expression in His command to Noah to preserve at least one pair of parents in order to propagate each species.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Archangel, posted 06-26-2016 5:50 AM Archangel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Archangel, posted 06-29-2016 9:03 PM kbertsche has replied

  
Archangel
Member (Idle past 1439 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 39 of 47 (786959)
06-29-2016 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by kbertsche
06-29-2016 8:42 PM


Hi kbertsche,
Check out my post # 6 for info I posted from the ancient book of Enoch which speaks directly to the Nephilim and suggests tha animals were corrupted genetically in order to create Giant animals to feed the Nephilim which had ravenous appetites.

If the rabble continues to occupy itself with you, then simply don’t read that hogwash, but rather leave it to the reptile for whom it has been fabricated.
Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by kbertsche, posted 06-29-2016 8:42 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by kbertsche, posted 06-29-2016 10:57 PM Archangel has not replied
 Message 41 by Pressie, posted 06-30-2016 7:14 AM Archangel has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2213 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 40 of 47 (786960)
06-29-2016 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Archangel
06-29-2016 9:03 PM


Archangel writes:
Hi kbertsche,
Check out my post # 6 for info I posted from the ancient book of Enoch which speaks directly to the Nephilim and suggests tha animals were corrupted genetically in order to create Giant animals to feed the Nephilim which had ravenous appetites.
Yes, I saw your post. The Book of Enoch is interesting, but it is not inspired Scripture. It is a book of Jewish mysticism written no earlier than 300 BC. It is a useful record of Jewish tradition. What it says about Nephilim interbreeding with both humans and animals is interesting, but I would class this only as speculation.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Archangel, posted 06-29-2016 9:03 PM Archangel has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 41 of 47 (786966)
06-30-2016 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Archangel
06-29-2016 9:03 PM


Archangel writes:
Check out my post # 6 for info I posted from the ancient book of Enoch
Why wasn't the Book of Enoch included in the mainstream Protestant versions of Bibles then? Not inspired I guess? Just another book not voted in by humans, I guess?
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Tangle, posted 06-30-2016 7:32 AM Pressie has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 42 of 47 (786969)
06-30-2016 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Pressie
06-30-2016 7:14 AM


quote:
Why wasn't the Book of Enoch included in the mainstream Protestant versions of Bibles then? Not inspired I guess? Just another book not voted in by humans, I guess?
  —Pressie
Might as well ask why The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe wasn't included in Lord of the Rings.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Pressie, posted 06-30-2016 7:14 AM Pressie has replied

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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 43 of 47 (786971)
06-30-2016 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Tangle
06-30-2016 7:32 AM


Yeah, that's what I gathered. Not inspired by God, therefore not included in the Protestant Bible, I guess? Still used by people like Archangel. Looking forward to see how the Word of God doesn't include The Word of God.
I would love to see how he/she tries to explain that one away...Fundie Protestantism is fun.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 06-30-2016 4:14 PM Pressie has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34054
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 44 of 47 (786973)
06-30-2016 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Pressie
06-30-2016 7:50 AM


where it is included
The Book of Enoch is included in two of the Canons, the Ethiopian Long Canon and the Eritrean Orthodox canon however parts from it are included in Jude and even Jesus is quoted as referencing it. It seems it was pretty popular about the time Jesus would have been living.
But if you get a chance to read it I think you'd get a kick out of it. It's definitely a fantasy comparable to Star Wars or Star Trek but certainly not on the same level of inspiration of Lord of the Rings.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Pressie, posted 06-30-2016 7:50 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Pressie, posted 06-30-2016 8:22 AM jar has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 45 of 47 (786974)
06-30-2016 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
06-30-2016 8:11 AM


Re: where it is included
Thanks, but if it was 'inspired by God' it would be included in 'The Word of God' used by the mainstream Protestant denominations seeing that they claim to know the ultimate Truth.
Yet, those books aren't included in 'The Word of God'.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 06-30-2016 8:11 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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