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Author Topic:   The Geological Timescale is Fiction whose only reality is stacks of rock
jar
Member
Posts: 33497
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 8 of 1257 (787873)
07-22-2016 11:33 PM


Faith's idea is just silly but good for a laugh or three
Faith writes:

No, what I'm saying is that what is actually seen is stacks of rocks that make it impossible for there ever to have been any such landscape as is inferred from the contents and qualities of those rocks. This isn't expecting to see such a landscape, it is expecting to see that such a landscape was possible and finding out it wasn't, that it is nothing but a fiction.

Once again Faith is simply wrong.

Geologist, archeologists, botanists, paleontologists and even just those honest people who look at the evidence, at reality instead of juvenile caricatures and cartoons, have some clue about what is found in those layers and what really is found are fossilized spores of plants, seeds of plants, imprints of plants and leaves (which can even tell us what the temperatures were like), tracks of animals that moved across the landscapes in addition to fossil bones. In fact, there are far more examples of the various landscapes during the billions of years the Earth has existed than of the animals that roamed the landscapes.

Those slabs of rock show whether the location was under water, how fast the water was moving, what direction the water was moving, what lived in the water at that location and time. It tells us whether it was above water, wet or dry, hot or cold, forest or meadow or tundra or bog. It tells us how high it was and how low it was. And each of the layers tell the story of that particular location at one particular time.

Reality, unlike the imaginary Biblical floods, leaves evidence.

Take a look at a few images of fossil leaf imprints. Each of those examples is direct, positive and irrefutable evidence that a genuine landscape existed at the time that particular layer of sediment was laid down. Each can tell us about the plant as well as the landscape that existed at the time it was alive.

Take a look at a few images of fossil track imprints. Each of those examples is direct, positive and irrefutable evidence that a critter moved across a genuine landscape that existed at the time that particular layer of sediment was laid down. Each of these can tell us about the critter that created the tracks as well as about the physical properties of the landscape the critter lived in.

Take a look at a few images of fossil insect imprints. Each of those examples is direct, positive and irrefutable evidence that a insect lived in the genuine landscape that existed at the time that particular layer of sediment was laid down. Each of these tells us about the environment of the landscape where the insect lived.

Take a look at a few images of fossil seed cones. Each of those examples is direct, positive and irrefutable evidence that conifer lived in the genuine landscape that existed at the time that particular layer of sediment was laid down. Each of these tells us about the environment of the landscape where the tree lived.

Take a look at a few images of fossil flowers. Each of those examples is direct, positive and irrefutable evidence that flower lived in the genuine landscape that existed at the time that particular layer of sediment was laid down. Each of these tells us about the environment of the landscape where the flower lived.

And interestingly when you look at what Faith calls flat slabs what you find is irrefutable evidence of landscapes and even when the first flowers show up, the first conifers show up, the first tracks made on land instead of under water, when the first trees appeared, when the first grasses appeared.

Reality is not the silly cartoons. In reality layers are not just flat slabs of rock. ALL of the evidence shows what existed were landscapes just like we see today, with high spots and low spots, water and land and most of all, with change over time.

The reality is that the fossil leaf imprints, fossil insect imprints, fossil tracks are ordered in the same way that all the other fossils are ordered and not in any way any flood could possible create. They are ordered based on what really lived at a given period and given location.

Faith writes:

Strange analogy and unrelated to my argument. The orderliness of the fossil record seems to be a problem for the Flood if that's where you start, but if you start by recognizing that the OE explanation is in fact physically impossible then there is nothing left but the Flood to explain the facts.

Well, not, that too is simply just not true.

Even if the very reasonable current explanation of change over vast amounts of time were wrong (and so far no one has ever presented any reason to think it wrong) the Biblical Flood is still not an explanation. The Biblical Flood is totally wrong and has been refuted for hundreds of years and cannot explain anything found in reality.

Granted, if the current theories were not so robust, so overwhelmingly supported by ALL of the evidence, some other explanation would be needed. That could not be the Biblical Flood though since that one has already been shown to be false and incapable of explaining ANYTHING seen in reality.

What is found in reality is not conjecture, not imagined, not just theory but rather they are facts; the nature of the item, the exact composition of the minerals, the method of lithification and consolidation are all factual, testable and irrefutable. The fossil exists. The track exists. The composition of the material exists.

Only the Biblical flood is conjecture.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 07-23-2016 4:12 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33497
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 19 of 1257 (787891)
07-23-2016 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
07-23-2016 2:50 AM


Re: Second cartoon from OP removed
Faith writes:

I'm going to remove that cartoon because it isn't conveying what it was meant to convey, which is not layers descending out of the sky, but merely a dinosaur peering out from his own layer/time period to see that the whole stack is just as barren and unlivable as his layer is.

But of course that is utter nonsense. Some areas were barren and some areas were fertile. Also, one period did not end and then another begin but just as today change was continuous.

Weathering and erosion are going on constantly just as the process of building up goes on constantly, just like today.

The reality is that if we look at the surface of the earth today we see very old rocks exposed in some places and brand new rocks being created in others. Today's great mountain chains like the US West Coastal range are being raised up today while old mountain ranges like the US East Coastal range are being worn down.

But as humans we examine and catalog what we find and what is found is evidence of billions of years of change; and, since we are humans we also tried to make sense of what we saw.

For a really brief moment, a few thousand years out of the hundreds of thousand years modern humans have existed on Earth the Biblical Flood was accepted as the explanation. So that explanation lasted until more detailed examination of reality showed it was simply impossible as a valid explanation.

While that was going on humans noticed certain uniform and universal traits that allowed the list of what exists to be grouped into smaller segments; that in this catalog we can group these things together.

One method was to use the first appearance of a particular anatomical feature; the first signs of life, the first appearance of back bones, the first appearance of reptiles, the first appearance of conifers, the first appearance of flowering plants, the first appearance of mammals, the last appearance of dinosaurs, the first appearance of grasses.

There were other groupings, cycles of hot and cold; repeated great die-offs where a large percentage of lifeforms suddenly (in geological terms) disappeared.

There was specific evidence of landmasses being created and broken up. And of new material surging up from within the planet and old material being pushed back down into the planet.

But only in a very very few cases was the whole planet relatively barren.

Just as today, the landscape changed. Usually the change was slow as mountains got pushed up, inches higher each year and other areas worn down becoming sediment that when worked by living things and mixed with the waste products of living things became soil.

Today, much of the US and Europe and Asia are rising up. Most folk don't notice but it's still happening. It is the surface of the earth that was scraped bare by the Glaciers that covered it until about 10,000 years ago. That glaciation happened several times, each incursion wiping the soil away leaving only a barren surface of bare rock, rock carved and scored by the glacier. With the weight of those thousands of feet of ice removed the land has been rising slowly back up. And in most places that had been just barren rock soil has formed and some of the most fertile land around.

Change is continuous Faith. It is not one landscape being created and then worn down before another landscape gets started; it is both processes going on continuously and simultaneously; The Rockies and Cascades going up while the Appalachians and Blue Ridge and Adirondack and Catskill chains are worn down to just stubs, the roots of what they once were. The San Joaquin Valley in California has subsided nearly 50 feet just since the 1920 while much of the Northern Hemisphere is seeing land rising in the post-glacial rebound that began 10,000 years ago and will likely continue for another 10,000 years.

But as I pointed out in Message 8 when we examine the content of the rocks from earliest to most recent what we do find is conclusive evidence of the life and lifeforms that lived on the landscape during every period for several billion years.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 07-23-2016 2:50 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 07-23-2016 9:40 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33497
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 21 of 1257 (787893)
07-23-2016 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
07-23-2016 9:40 AM


Re: Second cartoon from OP removed
And the flat expanses of rock do not exit in reality as you have been shown many times.

However the explanation for what really is seen is still the same, constant change over long periods of time. The Biblical Flood is simply just a fantasy and myth.

The evidence of what was there is still found in the individual rock layers as you have also been shown.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 07-23-2016 9:40 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 07-23-2016 11:12 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33497
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 28 of 1257 (787905)
07-23-2016 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
07-23-2016 11:12 AM


Re: Second cartoon from OP removed
Faith writes:

No, it's the rocks themselves, the strata, that are the only things that DO exist in this whole argument.

While that might well be true in your fantasy, in the real world it is utter nonsense.

Faith writes:

Photos galore are available of the strata in every kind of situation, many perfectly flat and forming sides of hills and mountains and cliffs and canyon walls, many tilted or twisted, but always identifiable as layers of rocks.

And that to may well be true in your fantasy but in the real world it is just utter nonsense. Sure there are layers of rock, but no one has ever denied that fact, but it is what is within those layers that testifies to the landscape that was there when that layer was the surface of the Earth.

Faith writes:

There are no photos of the landscapes imputed to them because if they ever did exist they no longer do, now being supposedly contained only in the rock layers; and of course this argument is about exactly that question.

And of course there are few photographs of those landscapes since photography is a brand new technology while we are talking about layers that were the surface millions and billions of years ago.

However the evidence as you have been shown repeatedly that does exist within those rocks attested to the indisputable fact that there was a landscape there when the critters that lived there wandered around. There is no supposed about it. The fossils exist, they exist in the very rock layers.

The only supposedly is the Biblical Flood and all the evidence shows that supposedly simply never happened and is just stories; fantasy, myth.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 07-23-2016 11:12 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33497
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


(3)
Message 41 of 1257 (787926)
07-23-2016 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
07-23-2016 4:12 PM


Re: Just a brief reply
Faith writes:

Not at all evidence of a "genuine landscape that existed at the time" -- could very well be just the surface of the most recent deposit of sediment left by the Flood that would soon be followed by another, and the creature is probably running from it. Nevertheless there are probably things that can be learned about the creature from its tracks.

That has got to be one of the stupidest posts ever, absolutely asinine sophomoric bullshit.

There is only one possible reaction to that post Faith and that is that is to laugh at the sheer ignorance that your post displayed.

Present the model, method, mechanism, process, procedure or thingamabob for your imaginary silly flood that could possibly do that?

Faith, you have NEVER been able to explain how the flood you claim happened could do anything like lay down a layer for critters to run across and then cover it over with yet another layer. We are discussing the things that really do exist in reality instead of just your fantasy.

Just so everyone can see just how absurd your post is, here is the content of the post you are replying to.

quote:
Faith writes:

No, what I'm saying is that what is actually seen is stacks of rocks that make it impossible for there ever to have been any such landscape as is inferred from the contents and qualities of those rocks. This isn't expecting to see such a landscape, it is expecting to see that such a landscape was possible and finding out it wasn't, that it is nothing but a fiction.

Once again Faith is simply wrong.

Geologist, archeologists, botanists, paleontologists and even just those honest people who look at the evidence, at reality instead of juvenile caricatures and cartoons, have some clue about what is found in those layers and what really is found are fossilized spores of plants, seeds of plants, imprints of plants and leaves (which can even tell us what the temperatures were like), tracks of animals that moved across the landscapes in addition to fossil bones. In fact, there are far more examples of the various landscapes during the billions of years the Earth has existed than of the animals that roamed the landscapes.

Those slabs of rock show whether the location was under water, how fast the water was moving, what direction the water was moving, what lived in the water at that location and time. It tells us whether it was above water, wet or dry, hot or cold, forest or meadow or tundra or bog. It tells us how high it was and how low it was. And each of the layers tell the story of that particular location at one particular time.

Reality, unlike the imaginary Biblical floods, leaves evidence.

Take a look at a few images of fossil leaf imprints. Each of those examples is direct, positive and irrefutable evidence that a genuine landscape existed at the time that particular layer of sediment was laid down. Each can tell us about the plant as well as the landscape that existed at the time it was alive.

Take a look at a few images of fossil track imprints. Each of those examples is direct, positive and irrefutable evidence that a critter moved across a genuine landscape that existed at the time that particular layer of sediment was laid down. Each of these can tell us about the critter that created the tracks as well as about the physical properties of the landscape the critter lived in.

Take a look at a few images of fossil insect imprints. Each of those examples is direct, positive and irrefutable evidence that a insect lived in the genuine landscape that existed at the time that particular layer of sediment was laid down. Each of these tells us about the environment of the landscape where the insect lived.

Take a look at a few images of fossil seed cones. Each of those examples is direct, positive and irrefutable evidence that conifer lived in the genuine landscape that existed at the time that particular layer of sediment was laid down. Each of these tells us about the environment of the landscape where the tree lived.

Take a look at a few images of fossil flowers. Each of those examples is direct, positive and irrefutable evidence that flower lived in the genuine landscape that existed at the time that particular layer of sediment was laid down. Each of these tells us about the environment of the landscape where the flower lived.

And interestingly when you look at what Faith calls flat slabs what you find is irrefutable evidence of landscapes and even when the first flowers show up, the first conifers show up, the first tracks made on land instead of under water, when the first trees appeared, when the first grasses appeared.

Reality is not the silly cartoons. In reality layers are not just flat slabs of rock. ALL of the evidence shows what existed were landscapes just like we see today, with high spots and low spots, water and land and most of all, with change over time.

The reality is that the fossil leaf imprints, fossil insect imprints, fossil tracks are ordered in the same way that all the other fossils are ordered and not in any way any flood could possible create. They are ordered based on what really lived at a given period and given location.

Faith writes:

Strange analogy and unrelated to my argument. The orderliness of the fossil record seems to be a problem for the Flood if that's where you start, but if you start by recognizing that the OE explanation is in fact physically impossible then there is nothing left but the Flood to explain the facts.

Well, not, that too is simply just not true.

Even if the very reasonable current explanation of change over vast amounts of time were wrong (and so far no one has ever presented any reason to think it wrong) the Biblical Flood is still not an explanation. The Biblical Flood is totally wrong and has been refuted for hundreds of years and cannot explain anything found in reality.

Granted, if the current theories were not so robust, so overwhelmingly supported by ALL of the evidence, some other explanation would be needed. That could not be the Biblical Flood though since that one has already been shown to be false and incapable of explaining ANYTHING seen in reality.

What is found in reality is not conjecture, not imagined, not just theory but rather they are facts; the nature of the item, the exact composition of the minerals, the method of lithification and consolidation are all factual, testable and irrefutable. The fossil exists. The track exists. The composition of the material exists.

Only the Biblical flood is conjecture.


The tracks exist. The fossils exist. The sequential and repeated layers of unique materials exist. What does not exist is the silly Biblical Flood or anything like Biblical Flood Evidence.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 07-23-2016 4:12 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 07-23-2016 11:59 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33497
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 44 of 1257 (787935)
07-24-2016 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
07-23-2016 11:59 PM


Re: Just a brief reply
Faith writes:

Stop telling me what I'm saying is "not true," when the point is I'm giving my argument and I know you have a different opinion.

Then stop posting things that are patently false. It's not a matter of opinions but rather one of reality opposed to your fantasy.

The tracks exist. The fossils exist. The sequential and repeated layers of unique materials exist. What does not exist is the silly Biblical Flood or anything like Biblical Flood Evidence.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 07-23-2016 11:59 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 07-24-2016 12:12 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33497
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


(3)
Message 55 of 1257 (787948)
07-24-2016 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
07-24-2016 12:12 AM


Re: Just a brief reply
Faith writes:

All you are doing is blathering the status quo which is what I'm answering. What you call fact is just your own opinion. I'm sick of it and stop accusing me of what is nothing more than disagreeing with you and the status quo, winning the debate by trumpeting your questionable opinion as if it were Truth. Never mind, I can just go back to ignoring you.

I have no problem with you ignoring me. That's fine. But it really is foolish of you to ignore the factual evidence which is simply not a questionable opinion.

Slow down and actually read this:

quote:
Geologist, archeologists, botanists, paleontologists and even just those honest people who look at the evidence, at reality instead of juvenile caricatures and cartoons, have some clue about what is found in those layers and what really is found are fossilized spores of plants, seeds of plants, imprints of plants and leaves (which can even tell us what the temperatures were like), tracks of animals that moved across the landscapes in addition to fossil bones. In fact, there are far more examples of the various landscapes during the billions of years the Earth has existed than of the animals that roamed the landscapes.

Those slabs of rock show whether the location was under water, how fast the water was moving, what direction the water was moving, what lived in the water at that location and time. It tells us whether it was above water, wet or dry, hot or cold, forest or meadow or tundra or bog. It tells us how high it was and how low it was. And each of the layers tell the story of that particular location at one particular time.

Reality, unlike the imaginary Biblical floods, leaves evidence.

Take a look at a few images of fossil leaf imprints. Each of those examples is direct, positive and irrefutable evidence that a genuine landscape existed at the time that particular layer of sediment was laid down. Each can tell us about the plant as well as the landscape that existed at the time it was alive.

Take a look at a few images of fossil track imprints. Each of those examples is direct, positive and irrefutable evidence that a critter moved across a genuine landscape that existed at the time that particular layer of sediment was laid down. Each of these can tell us about the critter that created the tracks as well as about the physical properties of the landscape the critter lived in.

Take a look at a few images of fossil insect imprints. Each of those examples is direct, positive and irrefutable evidence that a insect lived in the genuine landscape that existed at the time that particular layer of sediment was laid down. Each of these tells us about the environment of the landscape where the insect lived.

Take a look at a few images of fossil seed cones. Each of those examples is direct, positive and irrefutable evidence that conifer lived in the genuine landscape that existed at the time that particular layer of sediment was laid down. Each of these tells us about the environment of the landscape where the tree lived.

Take a look at a few images of fossil flowers. Each of those examples is direct, positive and irrefutable evidence that flower lived in the genuine landscape that existed at the time that particular layer of sediment was laid down. Each of these tells us about the environment of the landscape where the flower lived.

And interestingly when you look at what Faith calls flat slabs what you find is irrefutable evidence of landscapes and even when the first flowers show up, the first conifers show up, the first tracks made on land instead of under water, when the first trees appeared, when the first grasses appeared.

Reality is not the silly cartoons. In reality layers are not just flat slabs of rock. ALL of the evidence shows what existed were landscapes just like we see today, with high spots and low spots, water and land and most of all, with change over time.

The reality is that the fossil leaf imprints, fossil insect imprints, fossil tracks are ordered in the same way that all the other fossils are ordered and not in any way any flood could possible create. They are ordered based on what really lived at a given period and given location.


Those are not opinions but rather facts. The fossils exist and they exist in the order found in reality. That is a fact.

There is absolutely no way that any flood could do what is seen in reality. No one, not one single person, has ever presented a Flood model that can explain what is seen in reality.

The current explanation that does explain fully what is seen (there is no and can never be any "official explanation"; Science unlike dogma does not work that way and will always change when new evidence requires it) is that what is seen in older rocks is produced in the same way as what we see happening today.

Some areas were barren and some areas were fertile. Also, one period did not end and then another begin but just as today change was continuous.

Weathering and erosion are going on constantly just as the process of building up goes on constantly, just like today.

The reality is that if we look at the surface of the earth today we see very old rocks exposed in some places and brand new rocks being created in others. Today's great mountain chains like the US West Coastal range are being raised up today while old mountain ranges like the US East Coastal range are being worn down.

But as humans we examine and catalog what we find and what is found is evidence of billions of years of change; and, since we are humans we also tried to make sense of what we saw.

For a really brief moment, a few thousand years out of the hundreds of thousand years modern humans have existed on Earth the Biblical Flood was accepted as the explanation. So that explanation lasted until more detailed examination of reality showed it was simply impossible as a valid explanation.

While that was going on humans noticed certain uniform and universal traits that allowed the list of what exists to be grouped into smaller segments; that in this catalog we can group these things together.

One method was to use the first appearance of a particular anatomical feature; the first signs of life, the first appearance of back bones, the first appearance of reptiles, the first appearance of conifers, the first appearance of flowering plants, the first appearance of mammals, the last appearance of dinosaurs, the first appearance of grasses.

There were other groupings, cycles of hot and cold; repeated great die-offs where a large percentage of lifeforms suddenly (in geological terms) disappeared.

There was specific evidence of landmasses being created and broken up. And of new material surging up from within the planet and old material being pushed back down into the planet.

But only in a very very few cases was the whole planet relatively barren.

Just as today, the landscape changed. Usually the change was slow as mountains got pushed up, inches higher each year and other areas worn down becoming sediment that when worked by living things and mixed with the waste products of living things became soil.

Today, much of the US and Europe and Asia are rising up. Most folk don't notice but it's still happening. It is the surface of the earth that was scraped bare by the Glaciers that covered it until about 10,000 years ago. That glaciation happened several times, each incursion wiping the soil away leaving only a barren surface of bare rock, rock carved and scored by the glacier. With the weight of those thousands of feet of ice removed the land has been rising slowly back up. And in most places that had been just barren rock soil has formed and some of the most fertile land around.

Change is continuous Faith. It is not one landscape being created and then worn down before another landscape gets started; it is both processes going on continuously and simultaneously; The Rockies and Cascades going up while the Appalachians and Blue Ridge and Adirondack and Catskill chains are worn down to just stubs, the roots of what they once were. The San Joaquin Valley in California has subsided nearly 50 feet just since the 1920 while much of the Northern Hemisphere is seeing land rising in the post-glacial rebound that began 10,000 years ago and will likely continue for another 10,000 years.

But as I pointed out in quotation found above, when we examine the content of the rocks from earliest to most recent what we do find is conclusive evidence of the life and lifeforms that lived on the landscape during every period for several billion years.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 07-24-2016 12:12 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33497
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 57 of 1257 (787951)
07-24-2016 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Faith
07-24-2016 8:44 AM


Why do you reject explanations that are supported by all of the evidence?
Faith writes:

You know what, I don't recall hearing this explanation in the terms I'm asking for it, but what I'm hearing now I do refuse, absolutely refuse, to accept, because it's utterly beyond reason. The millions of years are ridiculous, and the idea that the strata that we actually see, stacked up as slabs of rock to miles deep and in many cases hundreds of thousands of miles in breadth, ever hosted landscapes, is PREPOSTEROUS. How you all can go on as you do is mindboggling. So OK you think I have heard the answer. So OK I reject the answer, it's utter absolute ridiculous preposterous nonsense.

Why do you reject it?

Why do you find it utterly beyond reason.

Why do you refuse, absolutely refuse, to accept the facts?

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 07-24-2016 8:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33497
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 90 of 1257 (788017)
07-24-2016 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by AdminAsgara
07-24-2016 4:44 PM


Re: Time period maps
Those maps are great for showing what has been described repeatedly in this and other threads that change is gradual and continuous and that while some areas might be underwater during certain periods there is still lots of land that is not flooded. What must be remembered though is that what is shown is just a snapshot that was taken every 5-10 million years and that there was gradual change throughout the periods and not an abrupt change to the snapshot state.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by AdminAsgara, posted 07-24-2016 4:44 PM AdminAsgara has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33497
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 96 of 1257 (788025)
07-24-2016 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
07-24-2016 6:42 PM


Re: a definite contradiction
Faith writes:

All these are west of the Rockies, with the last two partially in the Rockies. Which doesn't help the situation since while deep ocean makes the west unlivable, active volcanoes make the mountains unlivable during this time period.

More utter nonsense Faith.

Active volcanoes do not make mountains unlivable and believe it or not there is life in seas and even on islands in seas. There are even life forms today that live on volcanoes as well as in mountain chains where there are active volcanoes.

But WAIT... There's more.

Guess what? Very few dinosaur fossils have ever been found in California. There have been some Duck-billed dinosaurs and a few Raptors and all of those dated to around the time the Sierra Nevadas were forming and parts of what now is California were not under seas.

Remember Faith, when we are talking about dinosaurs we are talking about fairly long periods of history, over 200 million years and during that period of time things including landmasses did change. Some areas that were once under water became dry land.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 07-24-2016 6:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 2:01 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33497
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 128 of 1257 (788060)
07-25-2016 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
07-25-2016 2:01 AM


a look at Reality.
Think Faith.

Faith writes:

The dinosaurs found in the fossil beds of the Chinle formation did not live under water, and that many volcanoes would surely make that locale unlivable for anything. Perhaps you'd like to move to a place that has a dozen active volcanoes.

Take a look at this map. Can you see any triangles on this map?

Does anyone live on the US West Coast?

Does anyone live on the Hawaiian Islands?

Once again, reality says you are simply wrong.

Faith writes:

Yes the dinosaur beds are not in California. That's because there was no California during the time period we are discussing. The description of the Chinle formation does not mention California for that reason, only those six states that are clearly to the west of the Rockies according to that map. According to the paleogeographic maps that whole area was "deep ocean" no matter what you prefer to believe about it.

And yet as you have been shown, that is not and was not the case for all of the over 200 million years that dinosaurs roamed over what is now the US. And some dinosaurs fossils have been found in California.

Once again, reality says you are simply wrong.

Faith writes:

According to the maps the entire area west of the Rockies was under deep ocean water throughout the entire Mesozoic era, through the Triassic, the Jurassic and the Cretaceous periods. East of the Rockies the epeiric seas transgressed and regressed but there was water present in the middle of the continent throughout the Jurassic and Cretaceous. The source of this information is a respected textbook on historical geology.

Much of the west coast was formed by chains of islands merging with the continental North American plate and the Rockies and Sierra Nevada Range are not the same thing. And yes, changes happened but more than just rising and falling land levels, there was also land movement east and west and also north and south. But just as today, things happen slowly. Remember that southern California is actually moving north towards San Francisco?

The changes are not the simple cartoons you portray, but rather continuations of exactly the same forces that are going on now.

Maps are snapshots. A map does not show what the environment was for millions of years but rather what the map maker is showing as a rough guide.

Luckily though there is a better guide that does show the whole story and that is the geology itself. When the geology itself is examined we can see far more than what any map can show; we can see what lived at a given time, where it lived at that time, what else lived there at that time. The geology itself is not just a snap shot but a time lapse movie that tells us what the reality of the Geological Timescale is as opposed to the fiction you try to market.

AbE:

The geology itself also tells us what the surface was, whether it was a marsh, a bog, a river, a desert, a savannah, a lava bed, a lake or sea. Often it tells us even more, for example it tells us about seasonal wet and dry variations and tells us on a year by year scale. And things that get embedded in the geology can tell us yet more, such as whether the general climate at that time and at that place was warm or cold.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Edited by jar, : See AbE:


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

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jar
Member
Posts: 33497
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 129 of 1257 (788061)
07-25-2016 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Faith
07-25-2016 4:49 AM


Re: RETHINKING THE NORTH AMERICAN PALEOGEOGRAPHY
Faith writes:

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but dinosaur fossils are pretty rare in the eastern USA.

Dinosaur fossils are pretty rare almost everywhere but yes Virginia, there really are East Coast dinosaur fossils.

Remember. much of the exposed rock on the East Coast of the US is too old to contain dinosaur fossils; we find dinosaur fossils in areas where the current exposed surface is material from the times when dinosaurs lived. Here is a map and maginfying glass where you can see where the surface of what would be North America from 225 million years ago to about 65 million years ago exists as the current surface today.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 4:49 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33497
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 136 of 1257 (788072)
07-25-2016 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Faith
07-25-2016 1:05 PM


Re: Cretaceous dinosaur fossils in area that was underwater for the whole time period
Faith writes:

In the Cretaceous period as shown on the paleogeographic map of that period (in the textbook referred to), the Inland Seaway covered the middle section of the continent from the edge of the mountains of Nevada to the Great Lakes. This was part of the Zuni sequence that started in the late Jurassic and lasted for the entire Cretaceous period, some 79 million years. There is evidence of fluctuating shorelines of the seaway but the water was there for the entire Cretaceous period.

Are you using some Creationist textbook?

The Cretaceous period last over 100 million years and guess what? Once again the reality shows that you are simply wrong.

a map of the early Cretaceous from about 140 million years ago.

a map of the early Cretaceous from about 130 million years ago.

and about 115 million years ago

and about 100 million years ago.

and around 85 million years ago

as it was around 75 million years ago

and around the last we see of the dinosaurs

As you can see there were millions of years during the Cretaceous when there was land above water.

Once again reality says you are simply wrong.

Edited by jar, : fix one link


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by edge, posted 07-25-2016 2:37 PM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33497
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 142 of 1257 (788079)
07-25-2016 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
07-25-2016 3:51 PM


Re: Cretaceous dinosaur fossils in area that was underwater for the whole time period
Faith writes:

abe: Finally figured out the maps were posted by jar and checked them out. Not sure what the problem is. They show the seaway pretty much as the geology textbook does. I didn't say the water covered the entire continent if that's what you are implying. The maps and my sources just say that there was water in the area of the seaway for the whole Cretaceous period. The maps don't show anything different from that. If that's what you are saying please explain.

I'll try to explain.

In the first map there is no inland sea.

In the second map there is no inland sea.

Now Faith, the span of time between just those two maps is at least 10 million years. That is at least 50 times longer than modern humans (the Homo clan) have existed.

Ten million years.

Ten million years is a far amount of time. It's not surprising that dinosaurs that died during that period might be found in layers that would indicate dry land.

If you then look at the next map you find there are shorelines in the area in question. But again, there is a period of 15 million years between the second and third map. During that 15 million years the inland sea gradually grew to the extent shown in the map. That means a period of 15 million years while the portion of the area under water increased. That leaves lots of time for the critters to adapt. No one needs to run from an inundation that takes 15 million years.

Between the third and fourth map is another period of 15 million years and once again there is still shorelines within the area being discussed. That makes at least 40 million years when there were still some land that was not inundated in the geographic area being discussed.

The fifth map shows the extent of the inland seaway, when the North American continent was split into two islands. Yet even there we can still see some shorelines in the area under discussion.

The sixth map and seventh map show the inland seaway retreating and disappearing and so by the time the dinosaurs died out the area was once again almost all dry land.

What the maps show is that there was no time during the Cretaceous that there was not some land that was not under water in the area under discussion.

What you call stacks of rocks can actually tell us quite a lot about the landscape, climate, animals, plants, temperature and other factors that existed at the time the feature was the surface of the earth.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin in---> is


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 07-25-2016 3:51 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33497
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 146 of 1257 (788090)
07-25-2016 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Faith
07-25-2016 10:12 PM


Re: Cretaceous dinosaur fossils in area that was underwater for the whole time period
Faith writes:

I don't know exactly when Dinosaur Ridge at Golden, Colorado was deposited so that's a problem, but it appears to have been within the seaway for the whole 34 million years of the seaway's existence so it's a candidate for possibly having occurred in marine sediments.

Think Faith.

The seaway came and went in 34 million years. The Cretaceous lasted 75-80 million years. Dinosaurs were around for about 200 million years.

The inland sea was a very short lived incident and as you have been shown throughout the whole existence of the Cretaceous Inland Sea there was still shore land where dinosaurs could live.

The reality is that where the inland sea existed was dry land for millions of years before the sea existed and millions of years after the sea disappeared but still before the end of the dinosaurs. We are seeing at least 150 million years and more when the area in question was not under water and dinosaurs were around to live and die.

The evidence, the reality is that we are seeing irrefutable evidence that for millions of years the area in question was a working landscape wit lots of dry land.

While 150 million years is a fair amount of time, particularly since modern humans have only been around for about 200 thousand years, it is still just a small fraction of the history that exists in those stacks of rocks.

AbE:

One other important thing to remember. When what a book says is different than what the rocks say, believe the rocks. They do not lie.

Edited by jar, : over ---> about

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
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