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Author Topic:   Why did we stop inventing gods?
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 13 of 203 (789378)
08-14-2016 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
08-14-2016 6:21 AM


Re: Will The Real God Please Stand Up
Phat writes:
Personally I see Jesus as a greater prophet than Muhammad because Muhammad was focuses on worldly shrewdness while jesus was beyond that.
Have you ever read the Bible Phat?
When Jesus is supposedly quoted in the Bible stories he is almost always talking about worldly things, about behavior, about duties, about what a person should do for others.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

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 Message 12 by Phat, posted 08-14-2016 6:21 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 68 of 203 (789470)
08-15-2016 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Stile
08-15-2016 10:45 AM


Re: Growing pains
Stile writes:
DrJones* writes:
Faith writes:
He always gives warnings and time to repent, however, and if the babies' parents didn't repent the babies wouldn't have either.
Why wouldn't they?
Their hearts were hardened.
And we know from Exodus that God hardens hearts even when the individual wants a soft heart.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Stile, posted 08-15-2016 10:45 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 08-15-2016 12:41 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 71 of 203 (789479)
08-15-2016 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
08-15-2016 12:41 PM


Re: Growing pains
Phat writes:
In todays modern era, do you believe that God can or does harden hearts?
Why would God do something that we didnt want Him to do? Hmmmm good question.
*ponder ponder*
I know that the Bible says God did that and that it depends on which God we create.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 08-15-2016 12:41 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 08-15-2016 5:40 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 73 of 203 (789499)
08-15-2016 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
08-15-2016 5:40 PM


Re: Growing pains
Phat writes:
If the Bible is simply made up of Gods that we create, how does this fact strengthen or weaken your personal belief in GOD?(You know...the One who created and imagined us long before we were even capable of soiling our diapers...much less making Him up?
Why would it have any effect? Belief is not a matter of evidence but rather a life choice.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 08-15-2016 5:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Parasomnium, posted 08-16-2016 6:04 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 75 of 203 (789515)
08-16-2016 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Parasomnium
08-16-2016 6:04 AM


Re: Growing pains
Parasomnium writes:
This is what I've always thought of as a very strange idea. I think what you believe is very much a matter of evidence, or it should be, at least.
Language is wonderful, isn't it. Words can have so many different meanings.
Belief is one such example.
I use belief to mean something which may well be true but where I cannot be certain. In your example I would answer by saying I know how many people are in the room and explain the reasoning and evidence for that conclusion.
I believe there is a GOD but also understand that at least as long as I am alive there is no way I can know that there is a GOD. I understand that even after I die I may well not know the answer.
AbE:
Also please understand, I do not claim or assert or require or even believe that my beliefs are reasonable, rational or logical.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 80 of 203 (789529)
08-16-2016 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by New Cat's Eye
08-16-2016 10:31 AM


testable versus untestable.
In addition there is the issue of testable versus untestable things. In the case of aliens I can certainly imagine many ways that could be tested. Other things though seem by their very nature to be untestable. GOD and all other supernatural things fall in that later category. I simply can't imagine anyway to test and show something is supernatural.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

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Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 11:18 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 82 of 203 (789532)
08-16-2016 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
08-16-2016 11:18 AM


Re: testable versus untestable.
Faith writes:
However, the idea that there is NO evidence for the supernatural is what I'm objecting to. That merely reflects the prejudice in favor of testable evidence of the scientific sort against all other kinds of evidence. Jesus taught us through Thomas' doubting what the disciples told him about the resurrection that it's important to believe the witness reports of people we know to be trustworthy. If you dismiss their testimony and demand to witness it yourself you're simply killing the evidence you need to believe in supernatural thngs.
Yes, I dismiss witness testimony unless it can be supported beyond agreeing that the stories say what the stories say. It is no different than agreeing that Mrs. Marple did walk up Lansham Road.
Yet still I believe. I just do not expect to ever find anyway to test anything claimed to be supernatural including GOD.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 11:18 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 11:44 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 85 of 203 (789536)
08-16-2016 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
08-16-2016 11:44 AM


Re: testable versus untestable.
Faith writes:
Dismissing witness testimony is the mistake all unbelievers make when it comes to evidence for the doctrines of Christianity.
Yet I am not an unbeliever.
Faith writes:
(And before someone comes along and tries to equate Christian testimony to such supernatural events -- which is empirical (meaning observed and experienced in the real world by real people) -- with supposed similar testimony to other religious beliefs, forget it, it's not. NO other religion is based on multiple witness testimony to supernatural events, it's all just flat -out assertions to this or that, or instructions in the spiritual life or the moral life. ONLY Biblical revelation is based on the testimony by multiple witnesses to actual occurrences in the real world of a supernatural sort. It is THIS faith that Jesus' showed through Thomas' disbelief that we are to have. It's not a baseless empty "faith" -- it's a faith in realities that we'd otherwise have no access to.
And that paragraph is a great example of why witness testimony, in this case your testimony, should be disregarded. That paragraph is filled with nothing but dogma and apologetics.
There is no reason to think Christian Testimony is of any greater worth than any other unsupported testimony. There are far more examples of testimony by multiple witnesses to supernatural events in the Harry Potter series than in the Bible Stories.
We have almost no idea who wrote any of the Bible stories, do know for a fact that what is in the Bible is often factually wrong, contradictory, and absurd with no more authority than any other writings.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

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 Message 83 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 11:44 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 127 of 203 (790910)
09-07-2016 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Phat
09-07-2016 7:14 PM


Re: Human Responsibility vs Gods Responsibility
Phat writes:
I suppose that we could argue that God is responsible for everything that satan does...but God never directly created an evil satan.
In the Job story the God character directly instructs Satan to do his worst to Job.
In the Exodus myth the God character directly changes Pharaoh's mind and directly harden Pharaoh's heart so the God character can inflict more suffering on the Egyptians.
In the Garden of Eden story the God character directly forbids Adam and Eve from acquiring the knowledge needed to know to obey and then punishes them when they disobey.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 09-07-2016 7:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 09-08-2016 12:28 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 130 of 203 (790937)
09-08-2016 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
09-08-2016 12:28 AM


Reading literally vs Literally reading
Phat writes:
Thats not what the knowledge was, though...thats your interpretation of what it was. In addition, you claim the snake told the truth when the Bible clearly tells us that there is no truth in satan.
First clue: The Bible tells us the snake told the truth and the Bible tells us there is no truth in Satan. The Bible tells us Satan is God's agent whose duty is as a tester and the Bible tells us that Satan is the enemy.
When you see so many different and contradictory things in the stories it is pretty strong evidence that we are not dealing with something that has one purpose or goal or meaning and that was written by men and reflects their individual bias.
Second, in the story, the God character itself tells us that what the snake said was the truth. And the knowledge was of good and evil, of right and wrong. If an individual does not yet have the capability to know right from wrong how can they be expected to know who or what to obey?
Phat writes:
Sometimes in your quest for literal reading you end up interpreting a message in a way that it was not intended to be told. You are not helping people by glorifying the snake and demonizing God.
But I do not quest for literal reading rather I am simply honest about what actually was written.
I look at the story in Genesis 1&2 and can see that the serpent is truthful while the God character lies, the serpent is sure while the God character is unsure, the serpent is direct while the God character is bumbling and say, "Gee, the serpent must not literally be a serpent and the God character must not literally be GOD so there must be some other purpose to the story. Let's look at the whole story in context. Oh, it's a just so story about humanity and the change from hunter gathers to farmers and why we fear snakes and why child birth seems more difficult and painful for humans that the other animals and why women should be subservient to men."
I don't demonize God (the Bible stories certainly do though) nor do I glorify the snake. I did not write the story.
I do understand that the stories reflect the views of the peoples of a particular era, culture, society. And for many folk at many times the Gods were not nice folk. The Gods were not reasonable. The gods were not good. And they wrote about those gods; we see those gods in the Bible stories, mean, nasty, arbitrary gods that at best can be said to be amoral. We can also see other stories where a different description of god is presented. The God of Genesis 1 has almost nothing in common with the God of Genesis 2&3.
The intent of the story tellers and the folk marketing Christianity today are entirely different.
My intent is not to market a God since I am very very sure that any God I can imagine or worship is totally different from GOD if GOD exists.
BUT... I also want to point out that all the Gods Christians market today are certainly not GOD and many are really vile critters that if they existed should only be reviled and opposed.
I want to point out that the message is NOT some afterlife but rather about living this life.
I want to point out that the Bible is simply the work of man and does contain factual errors, contradictions and folk tales.
I want to point out that we have duties; a duty to think, a duty to be critical, a duty to others, a duty to the planet and life itself.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 09-08-2016 12:28 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 09-12-2016 5:08 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 150 of 203 (791205)
09-12-2016 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Phat
09-12-2016 5:08 PM


Re: The GOD Whom Jesus Markets
Phat writes:
jar writes:
The intent of the story tellers and the folk marketing Christianity today are entirely different.
Apart from the snake oil salesmen and telemarketing evangelists---whom many of us can see through---what was it that persuaded you that the rest of mainstream Protestantism--the Baptists, Assembly Of God, even Lutheran and Nazarene were also marketing differently than you believe?
Your question has nothing to do with what you quoted my saying. I'm saying the folk marketing Christianity today have an entirely different intent than the folk that wrote the stories. In fact most of the story tellers almost certainly had no intent to ever say anything about Jesus or Christianity. The reason I say that is I actually read what was written.
Phat writes:
jar writes:
My intent is not to market a God since I am very very sure that any God I can imagine or worship is totally different from GOD if GOD exists.
What about Jesus? Lets examine the GOD whom Jesus markets. Do you believe that GOD as you understand Him/Her/It is vastly different from the Father God that Jesus marketed..according to the Gospels?
I have no idea what God Jesus marketed or even a clue related to that. Jesus marketed a behavioral belief set rather than some God.
Edited by jar, : behavioral belief

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 09-12-2016 5:08 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Phat, posted 09-12-2016 6:04 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 152 of 203 (791215)
09-12-2016 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Phat
09-12-2016 6:04 PM


Re: The GOD Whom Jesus Markets
Phat writes:
Yes, but I was talking about marketing. Would you not agree that every club markets a different product?
Not just every club but often every chapter of every club and the evidence shows that was also true in every era. As I pointed out the God of Genesis 1 is an entirely different character than the God of Genesis 2&3. Neither of those Gods shows any resemblance to any of the Gods described in the New Testament. And that is also seen in every other belief system; the Gods created reflect the culture of the creators.
Phat writes:
Lets assume that Jesus would respond--when people asked Him to show us the father by saying "watch and learn".
Do you believe that Jesus knew His Father intimately or do you believe that Jesus had no clue how GOD looked or Who He Was?
On the first assumption I would say Jesus would say no such thing; rather he would say "Watch and learn how God wants you to behave."
On the second question I have no idea how Jesus when alive on Earth could know God intimately or what God looked like if God looks like anything or who God is.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Phat, posted 09-12-2016 6:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 09-12-2016 11:53 PM jar has replied
 Message 172 by Phat, posted 09-16-2016 6:26 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 154 of 203 (791228)
09-13-2016 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Phat
09-12-2016 11:53 PM


Re: The GOD Whom Jesus Markets
Paht writes:
jar writes:
On the first assumption I would say Jesus would say no such thing; rather he would say "Watch and learn how God wants you to behave."
So Jesus saw Himself as God? Would you behave that way?
I cannot imagine how you could get that from what I said. I see no evidence that Jesus saw himself as God. He did see himself as a person carrying a message he thought was from God.
Phat writes:
jar writes:
On the second question I have no idea how Jesus when alive on Earth could know God intimately or what God looked like if God looks like anything or who God is.
So Jesus didn't recognize or know His Father? Seems you contradict yourself here...
I see no contradicts there. Perhaps you can point them out?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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 Message 153 by Phat, posted 09-12-2016 11:53 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 174 of 203 (791497)
09-16-2016 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Phat
09-16-2016 6:26 AM


Re: The GOD Whom Jesus Markets
Phat writes:
I believe He saw himself as Gods son. I believe he knew his Father intimately.
You can believe whatever you like. Is there some evidence for that belief; can you explain how it might be possible to have an intimate relationship with God?
Phat writes:
Where you stumble is in not being able to conceive of the Creator of all seen and unseen having a personal relationship with you---in that He listens to your prayers and will help you with whatever you ask---provided it conforms communion-wise with His will.
I will go further and state I cannot even figure out what that word salad means.
Phat writes:
GOD is not simply some unknowable complete abstract.
Great. So how do you actually test to see if what you believe really is fact?
Phat writes:
I doubt we will ever agree because you do not respect the Gospel of John, in my opinion. Granted you can provide some evidence as to its authorship but I feel that when it comes right down to where the rubber meets the road, you go with human evidence over the Creed.
The Gospel of John and the various Creeds are entirely different critters and as such must be treated differently; just as the Gospel of John is an entirely different critter than the Synoptic Gospels and so must be treated differently.
Phat writes:
Granted I want the truth to be the way I felt that my own Father was towards me.
And that really is the difference in our opinions. I have no desire for the truth to be what I want, rather I want to know what the truth is regardless of my personal desires.
Phat writes:
Perhaps your whole responsibility kick and unknowable God stem from the fact that your Father was somewhat distant and would not rescue you.
And there you go just making shit up again in the hope it meets your needs.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 189 of 203 (794669)
11-19-2016 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Phat
11-19-2016 9:55 AM


Re: 1 issue at a time. I have a question for you GIA (based on a sentence of yours)
Phat writes:
When the truth is revealed fully to humanity, the scientific rational mind will be thoroughly blown away.
Phat, rational minds have been asking for some evidence all along. You make an assertion about some truth being revealed but that is all rational minds have ever asked for, reveal some evidence.
But is there some reason that you expect the "Truth" to actually be anything anyone had ever imagined? Do you actually think that the "Truth" will ever show some religion got it right even though all of the current evidence shows that they are all most likely wrong?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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