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Author Topic:   Why did we stop inventing gods?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 203 (789516)
08-16-2016 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Parasomnium
08-16-2016 6:04 AM


Re: Growing pains
I think what you believe is very much a matter of evidence, or it should be, at least.
If I have evidence, then I don't call it a belief. I reserve calling it a belief for when it isn't a matter of evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Parasomnium, posted 08-16-2016 6:04 AM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 10:17 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1558 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 77 of 203 (789518)
08-16-2016 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by New Cat's Eye
08-16-2016 9:41 AM


Re: Growing pains
CS writes:
Parasomnium writes:
I think what you believe is very much a matter of evidence, or it should be, at least.
If I have evidence, then I don't call it a belief. I reserve calling it a belief for when it isn't a matter of evidence.
I agree with Parasomnium. I don't think anyone can believe anything without believing there is evidence for it. And I doubt even you believe in anything without having some sort of evidence for it, even if you aren't aware of it, or for some reason feel obliged to disregard the evidence (because you think it wouldn't convince others perhaps).
Some evidence may be better than others, some people may be better able to assess evidence than others, but nobody believes anything without also believing there is very good reason for believing it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-16-2016 9:41 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-16-2016 10:31 AM Faith has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 78 of 203 (789522)
08-16-2016 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
08-16-2016 10:17 AM


Re: Growing pains
And I doubt even you believe in anything without having some sort of evidence for it,
Key words: "some sort of"
I was thinking empirical evidence.
Some evidence may be better than others, some people may be better able to assess evidence than others, but nobody believes anything without also believing there is very good reason for believing it.
I believe that there are aliens out there. I don't have any empirical evidence for it, but I do have reasons that I think are good.
I don't think anyone can believe anything without believing there is evidence for it.
But I don't believe there is evidence for aliens, yet I still believe in them.
And that's different than things that I do have empirical evidence for. I don't say that I believe those things, rather I accept them, or conclude them, or concur.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 10:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 10:53 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 80 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 11:01 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1558 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 79 of 203 (789525)
08-16-2016 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by New Cat's Eye
08-16-2016 10:31 AM


Re: Growing pains
People who believe in aliens usually think they have empirical evidence for them. The word only means evidence through observation or experience, and people who believe in aliens (or ghosts or other invisible entities) usually claim some sort of observation or experience of them. Again, I'd guess you have some kind of evidence for your belief in them, but probably dismiss it because it isn't what you think of as "empirical" evidence.
By which I suppose you mean SHARABLE observation or experience. Like replicable science experiments anyone can do.
Of course there's always witness evidence and in fact that's probably the biggest category of evidence any of us has for anything we believe. Somebody else observed or experienced something and we either believe them or we don't.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-16-2016 10:31 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 80 of 203 (789529)
08-16-2016 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by New Cat's Eye
08-16-2016 10:31 AM


testable versus untestable.
In addition there is the issue of testable versus untestable things. In the case of aliens I can certainly imagine many ways that could be tested. Other things though seem by their very nature to be untestable. GOD and all other supernatural things fall in that later category. I simply can't imagine anyway to test and show something is supernatural.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

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 Message 78 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-16-2016 10:31 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 11:18 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1558 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 81 of 203 (789530)
08-16-2016 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by jar
08-16-2016 11:01 AM


Re: testable versus untestable.
Other things though seem by their very nature to be untestable. GOD and all other supernatural things fall in that later category. I simply can't imagine anyway to test and show something is supernatural.
Testable evidence is apparently what Cat Sci means by empirical evidence, which means observations or experiences that others can share. It's no doubt the most certain kind of evidence. But I agree it's not possible with supernatural things.
However, the idea that there is NO evidence for the supernatural is what I'm objecting to. That merely reflects the prejudice in favor of testable evidence of the scientific sort against all other kinds of evidence. Jesus taught us through Thomas' doubting what the disciples told him about the resurrection that it's important to believe the witness reports of people we know to be trustworthy. If you dismiss their testimony and demand to witness it yourself you're simply killing the evidence you need to believe in supernatural thngs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 11:01 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 11:31 AM Faith has replied
 Message 109 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-16-2016 2:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 82 of 203 (789532)
08-16-2016 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
08-16-2016 11:18 AM


Re: testable versus untestable.
Faith writes:
However, the idea that there is NO evidence for the supernatural is what I'm objecting to. That merely reflects the prejudice in favor of testable evidence of the scientific sort against all other kinds of evidence. Jesus taught us through Thomas' doubting what the disciples told him about the resurrection that it's important to believe the witness reports of people we know to be trustworthy. If you dismiss their testimony and demand to witness it yourself you're simply killing the evidence you need to believe in supernatural thngs.
Yes, I dismiss witness testimony unless it can be supported beyond agreeing that the stories say what the stories say. It is no different than agreeing that Mrs. Marple did walk up Lansham Road.
Yet still I believe. I just do not expect to ever find anyway to test anything claimed to be supernatural including GOD.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 11:18 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 11:44 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1558 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 83 of 203 (789533)
08-16-2016 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
08-16-2016 11:31 AM


Re: testable versus untestable.
Dismissing witness testimony is the mistake all unbelievers make when it comes to evidence for the doctrines of Christianity.
(And before someone comes along and tries to equate Christian testimony to such supernatural events -- which is empirical (meaning observed and experienced in the real world by real people) -- with supposed similar testimony to other religious beliefs, forget it, it's not. NO other religion is based on multiple witness testimony to supernatural events, it's all just flat -out assertions to this or that, or instructions in the spiritual life or the moral life. ONLY Biblical revelation is based on the testimony by multiple witnesses to actual occurrences in the real world of a supernatural sort. It is THIS faith that Jesus' showed through Thomas' disbelief that we are to have. It's not a baseless empty "faith" -- it's a faith in realities that we'd otherwise have no access to.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 11:31 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 12:06 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 08-16-2016 12:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 526 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 84 of 203 (789535)
08-16-2016 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Parasomnium
08-16-2016 6:04 AM


Re: Growing pains
Parasomnium writes:
He is wrong though, because what he doesn't know is that Alice left the room through the window. Still, his belief is more rational than yours because it is based on the evidence available to him, and yours is an irrational choice.
If Alice could leave by the window, somebody else could enter by the window - so both beliefs are equally rational. The window is also evidence which is available to both of you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Parasomnium, posted 08-16-2016 6:04 AM Parasomnium has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 85 of 203 (789536)
08-16-2016 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
08-16-2016 11:44 AM


Re: testable versus untestable.
Faith writes:
Dismissing witness testimony is the mistake all unbelievers make when it comes to evidence for the doctrines of Christianity.
Yet I am not an unbeliever.
Faith writes:
(And before someone comes along and tries to equate Christian testimony to such supernatural events -- which is empirical (meaning observed and experienced in the real world by real people) -- with supposed similar testimony to other religious beliefs, forget it, it's not. NO other religion is based on multiple witness testimony to supernatural events, it's all just flat -out assertions to this or that, or instructions in the spiritual life or the moral life. ONLY Biblical revelation is based on the testimony by multiple witnesses to actual occurrences in the real world of a supernatural sort. It is THIS faith that Jesus' showed through Thomas' disbelief that we are to have. It's not a baseless empty "faith" -- it's a faith in realities that we'd otherwise have no access to.
And that paragraph is a great example of why witness testimony, in this case your testimony, should be disregarded. That paragraph is filled with nothing but dogma and apologetics.
There is no reason to think Christian Testimony is of any greater worth than any other unsupported testimony. There are far more examples of testimony by multiple witnesses to supernatural events in the Harry Potter series than in the Bible Stories.
We have almost no idea who wrote any of the Bible stories, do know for a fact that what is in the Bible is often factually wrong, contradictory, and absurd with no more authority than any other writings.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

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 Message 83 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 11:44 AM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 86 of 203 (789537)
08-16-2016 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
08-16-2016 11:44 AM


Re: testable versus untestable.
I agree with you. I was changed forever when I publicly confessed that Jesus is Lord...critics may say it was an emotional catharsis but I have personally seen people undergo similar transformation. Just 3 weeks ago, a young man whom I know who constantly struggled with alcoholism and who would no more set foot in a church than i would in a whorehouse decided of his own volition to go with me there...and after public confession the alcohol addiction was (and is) gone. He seems to have a different personality and character now...similar to the Saul/Paul conversion. Granted we still have our old natures...they are just suppressed...but the new nature seemingly generates from nowhere.
Now granted Ringo will argue that he usually sees better behavior from unbelievers than from believers...and I wont argue with him as I too have seen it.
The difference is that unbelievers try their hardest to be good under their own merits and will, whereas believers are transformed by the renewing of their minds...something an unbeliever won't experience.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 08-16-2016 12:19 PM Phat has replied
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 08-16-2016 12:57 PM Phat has replied
 Message 95 by Greatest I am, posted 08-16-2016 1:07 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 526 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 87 of 203 (789538)
08-16-2016 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
08-16-2016 12:12 PM


Re: testable versus untestable.
Phat writes:
...and after public confession the alcohol addiction was (and is) gone.
No it isn't. You yourself are evidence of that. *cough* gambling *cough*
Phat writes:
The difference is that unbelievers try their hardest to be good under their own merits and will, whereas believers are transformed by the renewing of their minds...something an unbeliever won't experience.
The only "renewing of their minds" that believers experience is the belief that they don't need to make an effort any more, that God has given them a get-out-of-addiction-free card. That can make them more likely to relapse, not less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 08-16-2016 12:12 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 08-16-2016 12:44 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 88 of 203 (789539)
08-16-2016 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
08-16-2016 12:19 PM


Re: testable versus untestable.
I have not gambled in 45 days and plan on being #Sober4Life. I can testify that God initiated my recovery much the same as He did when testing Job.
Job was a a righteous man who always prayed for his family, was fair and equitable in business and employed many people...treating them fairly. God allowed satan to test Job and the result was that Job eventually knew God rather than simply knowing about God.
My life is similar in some ways. I worked at safeway for 12 years and had not so much as a written discipline on any work related incident. I was making close to $500.00 a week, and had only one major addiction/sin in my life that tarnished my record.Gambling. About June 15th, God prompted me to start reading Job again. I had no idea why, but I was studying and reading every day through the latter half of June.
Around the last week in June, an incident happened at work--out of the blue. I will share a bit of it with you.
quote:
. I had just finished checking out a "rush" of people and was taking black baskets to the front lobby when a customer said to me "sir! A lady just went out the door without paying for her groceries! I know because she went around me and was not in line." I asked her to point the lady out...she pointed to a lady pushing a cart down the side of the front heading north.
I reacted without thinking and ran to stop the lady. I startled her because when I stepped in front of her she went "ahhhh"! I dont recall precisely how the conversation ensued, but I did barely recognize her as a customer I had seen before...so i asked for a receipt...saw one and grabbed it...saw the name "Bella" in the place where the checkers name is...and so began to take the cart away from her and into the store...(admittedly it was dark and I couldnt read the name...it was Bella "something" I assumed Bella the checker who was at that time not working. At no time did I touch her or behave rudely apart from my assertiveness at recovering the groceries. (...)On Saturday, July 16th, I was given a letter of termination.
Many other employees have confronted suspected shoplifters without termination. Yet not only was I terminated but was denied unemployment benefits. As we talk now, I am surviving on $800.00 in savings and no job. So I believe that God allowed this to happen to me. It has made me stronger in many ways, though I am broke as a joke.
The only "renewing of their minds" that believers experience is the belief that they don't need to make an effort any more, that God has given them a get-out-of-addiction-free card. That can make them more likely to relapse, not less.
In my case it has made me stronger.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 08-16-2016 12:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 08-16-2016 12:58 PM Phat has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 388 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 89 of 203 (789540)
08-16-2016 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
08-14-2016 5:02 PM


Re: Growing pains
Faith
"That is such an evil question I'm not going to address it."
As I said, faith is not wanting to face the truth.
You can run but you cannot hide from what your own god is.
A vile and immoral demiurge.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 08-14-2016 5:02 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 08-16-2016 12:51 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 90 of 203 (789542)
08-16-2016 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Greatest I am
08-16-2016 12:47 PM


Judging The Judge
the only evidence you have is what has been written by others. You cannot claim to know God so how can you judge Gods supposed actions without hearing from the defendant Himself?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Greatest I am, posted 08-16-2016 12:47 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Greatest I am, posted 08-16-2016 1:12 PM Phat has replied

  
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