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Author Topic:   Why did we stop inventing gods?
Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 121 of 203 (789812)
08-19-2016 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by LamarkNewAge
08-19-2016 6:14 PM


Re: GIA on Gnostic Christians.
Please stop dragging this thread off topic.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-19-2016 6:14 PM LamarkNewAge has taken no action

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1483
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 122 of 203 (790892)
09-07-2016 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
08-16-2016 3:36 PM


Re: Human Responsibility vs Gods Responsibility
Phat

"No. Job suffered pain. God did not directly cause that pain though by allowing satan to do it,critics could argue that God was responsible."

Only a lost mind that knows nothing of justice would say that the hit-man is responsible and exonerate the Don who paid him for the hit.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 08-16-2016 3:36 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by frako, posted 09-07-2016 6:12 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 09-07-2016 7:14 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1483
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 123 of 203 (790894)
09-07-2016 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by LamarkNewAge
08-19-2016 6:14 PM


Re: GIA on Gnostic Christians.
LamarkNewAge

quote:
Greatest I am
"Gnostic Christians always saw those invented gods, specifically Yahweh, Jesus and Allah, as immoral and not worthy of us and that is why they named those gods as immoral and vile demiurges

quote:
LamarkNewAge
"Gnostic Christianity had a negative view of Jesus?

Try that one again."

Reply:
Greatest I am
This does take a bit of explaining as my view is the modern one that was developed after Christianity merged Yahweh and Jesus into one.

FTPOV, the morality of Jesus and Yahweh are tied as well as all the foul actions attributed to Yahweh/Jesus.

There is more than one Jesus in scriptures. You have the Rome created one who is a kind and gentle pacifist who kowtows to Rome.
That Jesus is quite immoral if you look at his no-divorce and substitutionary atonement policies, as well as others.

There is the older esoteric Jesus that Gnostic Christianity has some respect for but to us he is just an esoteric teacher and archetypal good man.

----------------

quote:
LamarkNewAge
" Do you know something we don't?"

I don't know what you know but the above may show a modern twist to Gnostic Christianity that you did not know. We have to evolve or will end in stagnation and idol worship the way Christianity and Islam have.

As to my Gnostic Christian origins, I see us as first being a group of Jews, pagans and gentiles who called themselves Chrestians.

Christianity then usurped that name in their efforts to wipe us off the earth. We may never know though as the sands of time and Christianity's burning of our scriptures when they decimated us may have hidden the tracks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=r...

Regards
DL

Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 124 of 203 (790902)
09-07-2016 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Greatest I am
09-07-2016 2:05 PM


Re: Human Responsibility vs Gods Responsibility
funy how everyone ignores the wives and children that died in that storry. but he got new ones so everything is peachy.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Greatest I am, posted 09-07-2016 2:05 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 125 of 203 (790908)
09-07-2016 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Greatest I am
09-07-2016 2:05 PM


Re: Human Responsibility vs Gods Responsibility
Only a lost mind that knows nothing of justice would say that the hit-man is responsible and exonerate the Don who paid him for the hit.
Except that in this context, the hit-man was complaining that Job was doing well..in fact was jealous that Job was so blessed and wanted to make the hit. The Don merely refused to exterminate the hit-man at that point. I suppose that we could argue that God is responsible for everything that satan does...but God never directly created an evil satan. God allowed the possibility of evil and Lucifer chose it...actualizing his purpose. Thus the hit man chose to become a hit man.

I suppose you could blame God for everything...thus gnostically wanting to be your own god. You could, in effect, be your own hit man!

The whole argument on free will, determinism, illusion of free will, etc... hinges on the basic idea that God has no right to know what we have not yet chosen.

Ye shall be as gods. (Leave us the f*ck alone, Big Guy and let us actualize our own destiny!!)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Greatest I am, posted 09-07-2016 2:05 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 09-07-2016 7:35 PM Phat has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 126 of 203 (790909)
09-07-2016 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by frako
09-07-2016 6:12 PM


Re: Human Responsibility vs Gods Responsibility
Its like a potter with clay. So you choose to smush a few pieces back into the ball and start over? Clay is just clay....and humans are just humans...More of them can always be made. Who are we to b*tch at our Potter? (jar would argue that we not only have a right but a responsibility to set the potter straight!)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by frako, posted 09-07-2016 6:12 PM frako has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by ringo, posted 09-08-2016 11:53 AM Phat has seen this message

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33913
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 127 of 203 (790910)
09-07-2016 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Phat
09-07-2016 7:14 PM


Re: Human Responsibility vs Gods Responsibility
Phat writes:

I suppose that we could argue that God is responsible for everything that satan does...but God never directly created an evil satan.

In the Job story the God character directly instructs Satan to do his worst to Job.

In the Exodus myth the God character directly changes Pharaoh's mind and directly harden Pharaoh's heart so the God character can inflict more suffering on the Egyptians.

In the Garden of Eden story the God character directly forbids Adam and Eve from acquiring the knowledge needed to know to obey and then punishes them when they disobey.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 09-07-2016 7:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 09-08-2016 12:28 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 128 of 203 (790923)
09-08-2016 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by jar
09-07-2016 7:35 PM


Re: Human Responsibility vs Gods Responsibility
the God character directly forbids Adam and Eve from acquiring the knowledge needed to know to obey
Thats not what the knowledge was, though...thats your interpretation of what it was. In addition, you claim the snake told the truth when the Bible clearly tells us that there is no truth in satan.

God told them that they would surely die. He never stated if it was a physical death or a spiritual death.
Sometimes in your quest for literal reading you end up interpreting a message in a way that it was not intended to be told. You are not helping people by glorifying the snake and demonizing God.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 09-07-2016 7:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Asgara, posted 09-08-2016 1:49 AM Phat has seen this message
 Message 130 by jar, posted 09-08-2016 8:32 AM Phat has replied
 Message 134 by Greatest I am, posted 09-09-2016 10:04 AM Phat has seen this message

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 1543 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 129 of 203 (790926)
09-08-2016 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
09-08-2016 12:28 AM


Re: Human Responsibility vs Gods Responsibility
Where other than Revelation does the bible even come close to identifying the snake as Satan.

As far as who was telling the truth what did God say when he found out that they had eaten the fruit? (and why didn't he know they were going to eat it.. not very omniscient was he?)

Sometimes in your quest for literal reading you end up interpreting a message in a way that it was not intended to be told. You are not helping people by glorifying the snake and demonizing God.

Sometimes in your quest to turn god into what you want him to be you end up interpreting a straightforward text into WOOOOO. You are not helping people by making your God, and by extension you, so stupid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 09-08-2016 12:28 AM Phat has seen this message

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33913
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 130 of 203 (790937)
09-08-2016 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
09-08-2016 12:28 AM


Reading literally vs Literally reading
Phat writes:

Thats not what the knowledge was, though...thats your interpretation of what it was. In addition, you claim the snake told the truth when the Bible clearly tells us that there is no truth in satan.

First clue: The Bible tells us the snake told the truth and the Bible tells us there is no truth in Satan. The Bible tells us Satan is God's agent whose duty is as a tester and the Bible tells us that Satan is the enemy.

When you see so many different and contradictory things in the stories it is pretty strong evidence that we are not dealing with something that has one purpose or goal or meaning and that was written by men and reflects their individual bias.

Second, in the story, the God character itself tells us that what the snake said was the truth. And the knowledge was of good and evil, of right and wrong. If an individual does not yet have the capability to know right from wrong how can they be expected to know who or what to obey?

Phat writes:

Sometimes in your quest for literal reading you end up interpreting a message in a way that it was not intended to be told. You are not helping people by glorifying the snake and demonizing God.

But I do not quest for literal reading rather I am simply honest about what actually was written.

I look at the story in Genesis 1&2 and can see that the serpent is truthful while the God character lies, the serpent is sure while the God character is unsure, the serpent is direct while the God character is bumbling and say, "Gee, the serpent must not literally be a serpent and the God character must not literally be GOD so there must be some other purpose to the story. Let's look at the whole story in context. Oh, it's a just so story about humanity and the change from hunter gathers to farmers and why we fear snakes and why child birth seems more difficult and painful for humans that the other animals and why women should be subservient to men."

I don't demonize God (the Bible stories certainly do though) nor do I glorify the snake. I did not write the story.

I do understand that the stories reflect the views of the peoples of a particular era, culture, society. And for many folk at many times the Gods were not nice folk. The Gods were not reasonable. The gods were not good. And they wrote about those gods; we see those gods in the Bible stories, mean, nasty, arbitrary gods that at best can be said to be amoral. We can also see other stories where a different description of god is presented. The God of Genesis 1 has almost nothing in common with the God of Genesis 2&3.

The intent of the story tellers and the folk marketing Christianity today are entirely different.

My intent is not to market a God since I am very very sure that any God I can imagine or worship is totally different from GOD if GOD exists.

BUT... I also want to point out that all the Gods Christians market today are certainly not GOD and many are really vile critters that if they existed should only be reviled and opposed.

I want to point out that the message is NOT some afterlife but rather about living this life.

I want to point out that the Bible is simply the work of man and does contain factual errors, contradictions and folk tales.

I want to point out that we have duties; a duty to think, a duty to be critical, a duty to others, a duty to the planet and life itself.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 09-08-2016 12:28 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19540
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 131 of 203 (790948)
09-08-2016 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
09-07-2016 7:17 PM


Re: Human Responsibility vs Gods Responsibility
Phat writes:

Who are we to b*tch at our Potter?


What would we think of a Potter who destroyed every pot He had ever made (thinking of the Flood here, not Job), saving only His favourite pot? Mental illness would occur to us.

There's also a question of ownership. Do you defend the Potter's right to destroy His work in perpetuity? Would you like Henry Ford to come and wreck your car?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 09-07-2016 7:17 PM Phat has seen this message

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1483
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 132 of 203 (791026)
09-09-2016 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by frako
09-07-2016 6:12 PM


Re: Human Responsibility vs Gods Responsibility
frako

I hear you.

Christians do not call a spade a spade when that spade is their god.

Gnostic Christians are more honest and that is why we call Yahweh a vile demiurge.

Regards
DL


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Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1483
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 133 of 203 (791028)
09-09-2016 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Phat
09-07-2016 7:14 PM


Re: Human Responsibility vs Gods Responsibility
Phat

Your free will gambit is bogus.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

This shows that Jesus did not have the free will to refuse to do the immoral thing and promote substitutionary atonement.

This also shows that God would have had to not only choose Jesus to die, he would also have had to choose the man that killed him.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Regards
DL


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Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1483
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 134 of 203 (791029)
09-09-2016 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
09-08-2016 12:28 AM


Re: Human Responsibility vs Gods Responsibility
Phat

" You are not helping people by glorifying the snake and demonizing God."

Is it helping people to tell them they should honor a genocidal son murdering god who tells us to venerate life while he kills instead of cures those he thinks defective?

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 09-08-2016 12:28 AM Phat has seen this message

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by mike the wiz, posted 09-09-2016 2:35 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4721
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


(1)
Message 135 of 203 (791052)
09-09-2016 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
08-13-2016 11:48 AM


Your entire opening post is an assertion. Look how many times you said, "invented", so as to avoid having to prove your case. Lol.

Look at all of the question-begging-epithets you used, and repeated. If you keep calling a man a woman do you think saying it over and over again proves your case?

What is, "immoral" under a Godless worldview remind us? Oh yes, I forget, it's "anything you say it is." (relativism) In which case, your opinion God is "immoral" is a matter of opinion. Which is an example of sawing off the branch you are sitting on.

Under atheism, an implication of an accidental universe is that all morality is only relative conditioning, so to state God is, "immoral" could only be regarded as your subjective opinion, to refute you all a person has to do is literally say, "I disagree God is immoral" and who is to say they are wrong and you are right, under the logic of relativism?

First prove God is invented. All you offer so far is a generalisation-fallacy that because it seems clear gods can be invented, all gods are, and it seems even that fallacy wasn't fully formed, you kind of only got half the impression across by simply stating different examples of God, it is hard to interpret your convoluted, gibberish.

Obviously it is possible to create gods, yes, which if anything is problematic because that can in no way tell you if God does not exist, it just means a lot of shallow baloney-gods clearly invented to fill gaps, DON'T exist.

To jump to the conclusion that because we know men can invent false gods, and some clearly are, doesn't mean that all gods are false, which is a hasty generalisation.

The fact God says not to create idols or seek after other gods in the bible, can be taken as evidence that God does not want mankind to create false gods BECAUSE it will mislead them into concluding that He is not God. But of course, we instead have to GRANT your assumptions that God is not speaking. But you offer no argumentation, you just assert your beliefs He is invented.

So what!

I see that search for a god as a search for the best laws and rules to live life by

Who cares. You don't know God, have never had Him speak to you or known His presence. So why should an ignorant, relative opinion matter to me anyway? If you knew someone and knew them well and an ignorant twonk came up to you and said all false things about that person because they didn't know Him, why would you value their opinion as anything more than ignorant drivel?

Arrogant too, given they speak confidently about knowledge they do not have.

Your post isn't going to make Him invented dude, because the butterflies and trees will still exist in the morning, which is the clear evidence of His handiwork, and a trillion scientists saying otherwise won't make those baked beans unbaked.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 08-13-2016 11:48 AM Greatest I am has replied

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