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Author Topic:   A Believers Critique Of The Humanist Manifesto
Phat
Member
Posts: 15465
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 175 (789846)
08-20-2016 6:38 PM


I was asked to start a topic on my personal religious bias against the three documents that make up the Humanist Manifesto.
Humanist Manifesto
Humanist Manifesti II
Humanist Manifesto III

Everything that I have read from Biblical Christians (who critics call conservative,uninformed, and in a realm of fantasy versus reality) indicates that the world will by and large reject all forms of organized religion due to the fundamentalist oppressive nature of its tenets and will embrace a form of belief in the human animal and our collective potential known as secular humanism.

What does the evidence show us regarding international relations, global finance, the steady decline of the United States both morally and financially, and the rise of false religion the world over?

Are the secular humanists right? Is religion and ancient beliefs threatening a logical and rational future for our planet and ourselves?

Or are the Christian literalists right? Are we all doomed to a bleak future by our actions of rejecting God and seeking to deify ourselves as the ultimate source of wisdom and logic?

Faith & Belief, please

Edited by Phat, : spelling


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 08-20-2016 10:07 PM Phat has responded
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15465
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 175 (789876)
08-21-2016 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
08-20-2016 10:07 PM


Re: Where is the problem?
jar writes:

...where is the problem if religions were abandoned?

Lets look at the original Humanist Manifesto

Several of the statements contained within this document concern me.

  • There is great danger of a final, and we believe fatal, identification of the word religion with doctrines and methods which have lost their significance and which are powerless to solve the problem of human living in the Twentieth Century. So which doctrines and methods do the humanists(most of whom seem to be Unitarians or atheists) find so outdated?
  • Today man's larger understanding of the universe, his scientific achievements, and deeper appreciation of brotherhood, have created a situation which requires a new statement of the means and purposes of religion. So I'm curious how this new statement differs from the Bible and/or traditional belief. The humanists then go on to affirm no less than 15 basic belief statements...many of which I disagree with. Lets take each one individually.

    FIRST: Religious humanists regard the universe as self-existing and not created.
    Absolute rubbish! Are they in essence saying the universe created itself or always existed? Where do they get off on denying even so much as the possibility of a Creator? This is what I mean when I said these manifestos were arrogant!
    SECOND: Humanism believes that man is a part of nature and that he has emerged as a result of a continuous process.
    This one isn't so bad. The only danger I see in this affirmation is to state that man is no more special or unique than any other animal. It is quite obvious that no other animal has approached our level of development. God appeared to us as a man. Not a dolphin. Not a Bird. Not an alien. I see no problem with a cautious belief and acknowledgement of biological evolution...provided that ancient religious beliefs are not simply discarded wholesale as human ignorance. There is much that the scientific mind of today cannot prove nor disprove regarding spirituality. Absence of evidence should never conclude evidence of absence.
    THIRD: Holding an organic view of life, humanists find that the traditional dualism of mind and body must be rejected.
    Do they mean the substance or Cartesian dualism made popular through the teachings of Rene Descartes? Are they advocating Holistic Health? If so, I believe that humanity is triparte:

    FOURTH: Humanism recognizes that man's religious culture and civilization, as clearly depicted by anthropology and history, are the product of a gradual development due to his interaction with his natural environment and with his social heritage. The individual born into a particular culture is largely molded by that culture.
    I would agree except to state that God was made man in order to interact with humanity and that even though this is only a belief it is not fair or proper to reject this belief. After all, who made the humanists any sort of final authority on belief?
    FIFTH: Humanism asserts that the nature of the universe depicted by modern science makes unacceptable any supernatural or cosmic guarantees of human values. Obviously humanism does not deny the possibility of realities as yet undiscovered, but it does insist that the way to determine the existence and value of any and all realities is by means of intelligent inquiry and by the assessment of their relations to human needs. Religion must formulate its hopes and plans in the light of the scientific spirit and method.
    The sad thing is, you would probably agree with them on this, jar. And to say that you are a Christian! You have denied Christ in favor of logic, reason, and reality. Its ironic that the so-called reality you embrace is but an illusion in the grand scheme of things. The humanists will, however someday find out that they were wrong all along. The Holy Spirit trumps any sort of scientific "spirit" mentioned.
    SIXTH: We are convinced that the time has passed for theism, deism, modernism, and the several varieties of "new thought".
    Right here says it all. They have declared themselves in opposition to Theism.
    SEVENTH: Religion consists of those actions, purposes, and experiences which are humanly significant. Nothing human is alien to the religious. It includes labor, art, science, philosophy, love, friendship, recreation--all that is in its degree expressive of intelligently satisfying human living. The distinction between the sacred and the secular can no longer be maintained.
    I have no problem with this one.
    EIGHTH: Religious Humanism considers the complete realization of human personality to be the end of man's life and seeks its development and fulfillment in the here and now. This is the explanation of the humanist's social passion.
    It is good to focus on the present. It is all we really have.
    NINTH: In the place of the old attitudes involved in worship and prayer the humanist finds his religious emotions expressed in a heightened sense of personal life and in a cooperative effort to promote social well-being.
    This is expected from people who have nothing to pray to.
    TENTH: It follows that there will be no uniquely religious emotions and attitudes of the kind hitherto associated with belief in the supernatural.
    Here comes the gestapo again! The thought police outlawing any expression of worship towards the supernatural which they in their arrogance and ignorance cannot see.
    ELEVENTH: Man will learn to face the crises of life in terms of his knowledge of their naturalness and probability. Reasonable and manly attitudes will be fostered by education and supported by custom. We assume that humanism will take the path of social and mental hygiene and discourage sentimental and unreal hopes and wishful thinking.
    Discouragement in fantasy is to be encouraged. To label Christian belief as fantasy, however, is going outside of their pay grade. God created them before they had a clue of what to even make up.
    TWELFTH: Believing that religion must work increasingly for joy in living, religious humanists aim to foster the creative in man and to encourage achievements that add to the satisfactions of life.
    I have no problem with this one.
    THIRTEENTH: Religious humanism maintains that all associations and institutions exist for the fulfillment of human life. The intelligent evaluation, transformation, control, and direction of such associations and institutions with a view to the enhancement of human life is the purpose and program of humanism. Certainly religious institutions, their ritualistic forms, ecclesiastical methods, and communal activities must be reconstituted as rapidly as experience allows, in order to function effectively in the modern world.
    define "reconstituted".....
    FOURTEENTH: The humanists are firmly convinced that existing acquisitive and profit-motivated society has shown itself to be inadequate and that a radical change in methods, controls, and motives must be instituted. A socialized and cooperative economic order must be established to the end that the equitable distribution of the means of life be possible. The goal of humanism is a free and universal society in which people voluntarily and intelligently cooperate for the common good. Humanists demand a shared life in a shared world.
    This is where global finance comes in to play. I am for a more fair and just world, but will not surrender my own means of survival to a centralized control so as to redistribute wealth. Furthermore, there aint no global organization gonna ever slap a chip in my hand or insist that I must join their system in order to buy or sell anything. period!
    FIFTEENTH AND LAST: We assert that humanism will: (a) affirm life rather than deny it; (b) seek to elicit the possibilities of life, not flee from them; and (c) endeavor to establish the conditions of a satisfactory life for all, not merely for the few. By this positive morale and intention humanism will be guided, and from this perspective and alignment the techniques and efforts of humanism will flow.
    Consensus has not yet been achieved. There will have to be more give and take before such a unified system is allowed to govern the affairs of this planet. May Gods wisdom prevail.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by jar, posted 08-20-2016 10:07 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 10 of 175 (789886)
    08-21-2016 10:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 9 by jar
    08-21-2016 8:13 PM


    Re: Where is the problem?
    jar writes:

    You disregard almost all ancient religious beliefs. You disregard Thor and Zeus and Apollo and Coyote and Ganesha and Ra and Anubis and Ma'at and Eros and Uranus and Shiva and Brahma as well as literally thousands of other ancient gods and religious beliefs. You discard Islam and Judaism and Taoism and Confucianism and Zoroastrianism and Hinduism and Buddhism and Shintoism as well as the German and Norse and English and Celtic pagan religions.

    Some folks believe that there are many truths. I believe there is one truth. Some folks believe that there are many ways to believe and that it is arrogant to assume that one has the correct belief if such a thing exists. Perhaps I am arrogant, but I find it hard to compromise without weakening my basic stance.
    You go on and on echoing your disagreement but you never present any support or reason or logic for why your position has any more merit than their position.
    Quite likely I am, as Dr.A. suggests, a presuppositionalist.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by jar, posted 08-21-2016 8:13 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 11 by jar, posted 08-21-2016 10:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 56 by Taq, posted 09-16-2016 12:44 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 14 of 175 (789907)
    08-22-2016 5:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 12 by PaulK
    08-22-2016 12:23 AM


    Re: Where is the problem?
    PaulK writes:

    So basically your objection is that humanists have beliefs that you don't like. Thus you call them arrogant and invent false accusations against them.

    Where did i invent any false accusations? jar is the only one whining that I always misrepresent him. At any rate, lets move on to Humanist Manifesto II shall we?
    quote:
    It is forty years since Humanist Manifesto I (1933) appeared. Events since then make that earlier statement seem far too optimistic. Nazism has shown the depths of brutality of which humanity is capable. Other totalitarian regimes have suppressed human rights without ending poverty. Science has sometimes brought evil as well as good. Recent decades have shown that inhuman wars can be made in the name of peace. The beginnings of police states, even in democratic societies, widespread government espionage, and other abuses of power by military, political, and industrial elites, and the continuance of unyielding racism, all present a different and difficult social outlook.
    They start out sounding a bit more realistic. Humans are a bit more evil than they presupposed.
    As we approach the twenty-first century, however, an affirmative and hopeful vision is needed. Faith, commensurate with advancing knowledge, is also necessary.
    Science and critical thinking can't solve everything! Its about time the humanists came around...or is it?
    As in 1933, humanists still believe that traditional theism, especially faith in the prayer-hearing God, assumed to live and care for persons, to hear and understand their prayers, and to be able to do something about them, is an unproved and outmoded faith. Salvationism, based on mere affirmation, still appears as harmful, diverting people with false hopes of heaven hereafter. Reasonable minds look to other means for survival.
    Still rejecting Theism, I see. So what is it they suggest we have faith in?
    Using technology wisely, we can control our environment, conquer poverty, markedly reduce disease, extend our life-span, significantly modify our behavior, alter the course of human evolution and cultural development, unlock vast new powers, and provide humankind with unparalleled opportunity for achieving an abundant and meaningful life.
    Yes...but
    Faced with apocalyptic prophesies and doomsday scenarios, many flee in despair from reason and embrace irrational cults and theologies of withdrawal and retreat.
    Traditional moral codes and newer irrational cults both fail to meet the pressing needs of today and tomorrow. False "theologies of hope" and messianic ideologies, substituting new dogmas for old, cannot cope with existing world realities. They separate rather than unite peoples.
    OK, I'll give everyone this one. Historically, religion has separated more often than it has united people. This is, however, not the fault of Jesus Christ....or is it?
    Matthew 10:34-39 writes:

    "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 3 For I have come to turn
    "'a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
    a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law-
    a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

    37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

    So we must ask ourselves if that was part of Jesus plan
    and if so, why?
    Back to the manifesto II:
    The ultimate goal should be the fulfillment of the potential for growth in each human personality - not for the favored few, but for all of humankind. Only a shared world and global measures will suffice.
    Sound rather noble so far...
    Free thought, atheism, agnosticism, skepticism, deism, rationalism, ethical culture, and liberal religion all claim to be heir to the humanist tradition. Humanism traces its roots from ancient China, classical Greece and Rome, through the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, to the scientific revolution of the modern world. But views that merely reject theism are not equivalent to humanism. They lack commitment to the positive belief in the possibilities of human progress and to the values central to it. Many within religious groups, believing in the future of humanism, now claim humanist credentials.
    This seems more realistic than the first manifesto where they sought to eliminate theism altogether! Lets continue...
    They discuss Religion specifically.
    FIRST: In the best sense, religion may inspire dedication to the highest ethical ideals. The cultivation of moral devotion and creative imagination is an expression of genuine "spiritual" experience and aspiration.
    We believe, however, that traditional dogmatic or authoritarian religions that place revelation, God, ritual, or creed above human needs and experience do a disservice to the human species. Any account of nature should pass the tests of scientific evidence; in our judgment, the dogmas and myths of traditional religions do not do so. Even at this late date in human history, certain elementary facts based upon the critical use of scientific reason have to be restated. We find insufficient evidence for belief in the existence of a supernatural; it is either meaningless or irrelevant to the question of survival and fulfillment of the human race. As non-theists, we begin with humans not God, nature not deity. Nature may indeed be broader and deeper than we now know; any new discoveries, however, will but enlarge our knowledge of the natural.
    See Tangle, they are speaking your language! You also, PaulK.
    We need, instead, radically new human purposes and goals.
    We appreciate the need to preserve the best ethical teachings in the religious traditions of humankind, many of which we share in common. But we reject those features of traditional religious morality that deny humans a full appreciation of their own potentialities and responsibilities.
    Jar,you have often mentioned responsibility as being the ingredient lacking in Biblical Christianity. Sounds like these humanists are preaching to a friendly choir here at EvC apart from dogmatic obstructionists such as myself!

    Too often traditional faiths encourage dependence rather than independence, obedience rather than affirmation, fear rather than courage. More recently they have generated concerned social action, with many signs of relevance appearing in the wake of the "God Is Dead" theologies. But we can discover no divine purpose or providence for the human species. While there is much that we do not know, humans are responsible for what we are or will become. No deity will save us; we must save ourselves.
    Of course I disagree. We cannot save ourselves. I am quite sure that most of you feel the same as these humanists affirm, however. Lets continue.
    SECOND: Promises of immortal salvation or fear of eternal damnation are both illusory and harmful. They distract humans from present concerns, from self-actualization, and from rectifying social injustices.
    See, Tangle. They speak your language!
    Traditional religions are surely not the only obstacles to human progress. Other ideologies also impede human advance. Some forms of political doctrine, for instance, function religiously, reflecting the worst features of orthodoxy and authoritarianism, especially when they sacrifice individuals on the altar of Utopian promises.
    Hmmmm is that directed towards Hillary or The Donald?
    THIRD: We affirm that moral values derive their source from human experience. Ethics is autonomous and situational needing no theological or ideological sanction. Ethics stems from human need and interest. To deny this distorts the whole basis of life. Human life has meaning because we create and develop our futures.
    In other words, they would deride the basic Biblical Christian assumption of Original Sin. They do have a positive outlook, however.
    FOURTH: Reason and intelligence are the most effective instruments that humankind possesses. There is no substitute: neither faith nor passion suffices in itself. The controlled use of scientific methods, which have transformed the natural and social sciences since the Renaissance, must be extended further in the solution of human problems. But reason must be tempered by humility, since no group has a monopoly of wisdom or virtue.
    I like the fact that they stress the need for humility.
    FIFTH: The preciousness and dignity of the individual person is a central humanist value.(...)We reject all religious, ideological, or moral codes that denigrate the individual, suppress freedom, dull intellect, dehumanize personality.
    I won't argue this position. Who would want to?
    SIXTH: In the area of sexuality, we believe that intolerant attitudes, often cultivated by orthodox religions and puritanical cultures, unduly repress sexual conduct. (...)Short of harming others or compelling them to do likewise, individuals should be permitted to express their sexual proclivities and pursue their lifestyles as they desire.
    Although the fundamentalists and charismaniacal Christians won't agree with this stance, I believe that it is inevitable and is in and of itself not a bad thing. Tolerance should be encouraged. My only concern regarding sexuality is whether humans really understand what love is beyond love for each other. Look at the words of Jesus:
    Matthew 22:37-40 writes:

    Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

    I personally believe that human love is incomplete without the first commandment. Humanists believe in humans more than they believe in God. Thus we disagree.
    SEVENTH: To enhance freedom and dignity the individual must experience a full range of civil liberties in all societies. This includes freedom of speech and the press, political democracy, the legal right of opposition to governmental policies, fair judicial process, religious liberty, freedom of association, and artistic, scientific, and cultural freedom. It also includes a recognition of an individual's right to die with dignity, euthanasia, and the right to suicide.
    No argument here.
    EIGHTH: We are committed to an open and democratic society. We must extend participatory democracy in its true sense to the economy, the school, the family, the workplace, and voluntary associations. (...)People are more important than decalogues, rules, proscriptions, or regulations.
    I agree with this.
    NINTH: The separation of church and state and the separation of ideology and state are imperatives.
    Inevitable, though I am not in favor of making Christianity equal with everything else...dogmatic obstructionist that I am. Pray for me.
    TENTH: Humane societies should evaluate economic systems not by rhetoric or ideology, but by whether or not they increase economic well-being for all individuals and groups, minimize poverty and hardship, increase the sum of human satisfaction, and enhance the quality of life.
    No objection there.
    ELEVENTH: The principle of moral equality must be furthered through elimination of all discrimination based upon race, religion, sex, age, or national origin.(they are in favor of a minimum guaranteed income for those who cannot work)We are concerned for the welfare of the aged, the infirm, the disadvantaged, and also for the outcasts - the mentally retarded, abandoned, or abused children, the handicapped, prisoners, and addicts - for all who are neglected or ignored by society.
    My only protest here is that this is economically impossible to implement at a global level. The standard of living would drop too far. I don't know what alternatives would avoid this, however.
    TWELFTH: We deplore the division of humankind on nationalistic grounds.
    They advocate a basic new world order and one world government. I am not optimistic regarding our readiness for such a system nor our ability to govern it. I believe that God should be at the head of any world government...though it appears He has not returned yet to assume His throne.
    THIRTEENTH: This world community must renounce the resort to violence and force as a method of solving international disputes.
    Great in theory...but how could they hope to turn off global violence?
    FOURTEENTH: The world community must engage in cooperative planning concerning the use of rapidly depleting resources.
    How will they implement global discipline to achieve such aims?
    FIFTEENTH: The problems of economic growth and development can no longer be resolved by one nation alone; they are worldwide in scope.
    The United States won't like being displaced as global cop by a one world system.
    SIXTEENTH: Technology is a vital key to human progress and development.
    No argument here.
    SEVENTEENTH: We must expand communication and transportation across frontiers. Travel restrictions must cease. The world must be open to diverse political, ideological, and moral viewpoints and evolve a worldwide system of television and radio for information and education.
    And how will terrorism suddenly go away? How will that problem be solved?
    IN CLOSING: The world cannot wait for a reconciliation of competing political or economic systems to solve its problems.(...)Let us call for an end to terror and hatred. (...)At the present juncture of history, commitment to all humankind is the highest commitment of which we are capable; it transcends the narrow allegiances of church, state, party, class, or race in moving toward a wider vision of human potentiality.
    So there you have it.
    Comments?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 12 by PaulK, posted 08-22-2016 12:23 AM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 15 by PaulK, posted 08-22-2016 5:39 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 16 by jar, posted 08-22-2016 9:32 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 17 by Riggamortis, posted 08-22-2016 9:36 AM Phat has responded
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 19 of 175 (789916)
    08-22-2016 9:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 17 by Riggamortis
    08-22-2016 9:36 AM


    The Need For Divine Intervention
    I have a hypothetical for you Phat.
    If things were going well and we were being nicer to each other, I see no reason God would need to intervene. If, however, we short-circuited, or somehow were doing something that displeased God, I suppose that He would have every right to intervene. Time will tell, I suppose.

    Oh and by the way, jar always wanted me to throw God away. It seemed preposterous until I actually realized that IF GOD exists, I shouldn't have any worries of disposing of Him.

    Edited by Phat, : added comment


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 17 by Riggamortis, posted 08-22-2016 9:36 AM Riggamortis has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 20 by jar, posted 08-22-2016 10:18 AM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 21 of 175 (789919)
    08-22-2016 10:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 20 by jar
    08-22-2016 10:18 AM


    Re: The Need For Divine Intervention
    But again, what is The Need For Divine Intervention?
    You can answer your own question by answering this: What is the need for a second coming?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 20 by jar, posted 08-22-2016 10:18 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 22 by jar, posted 08-22-2016 10:45 AM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 24 of 175 (789923)
    08-22-2016 10:53 AM
    Reply to: Message 22 by jar
    08-22-2016 10:45 AM


    Re: The Need For Divine Intervention
    If Christ is coming back, He is coming back for everyone...not just those who believe in Him or those who subscribe to a particular subset of dogma. And to answer your question, Divine Intervention is needed if humans fail. In the past, the nation itself would repent and pray for Divine Intervention. These days its hard telling what people would do.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 22 by jar, posted 08-22-2016 10:45 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 25 by jar, posted 08-22-2016 11:02 AM Phat has responded
     Message 26 by NoNukes, posted 08-22-2016 11:06 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 27 by ringo, posted 08-22-2016 11:53 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    (1)
    Message 28 of 175 (789933)
    08-22-2016 1:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 25 by jar
    08-22-2016 11:02 AM


    Re: The Need For Divine Intervention
    jar writes:

    Thank God more and more people are saying "Well it's our responsibility to deal with the problems and not expect God to fix them!"



    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by jar, posted 08-22-2016 11:02 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 30 by jar, posted 08-22-2016 1:28 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 31 of 175 (789944)
    08-22-2016 1:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 30 by jar
    08-22-2016 1:28 PM


    Re: The Need For Divine Intervention
    You don't get it? Shall I say thats pitiful?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 30 by jar, posted 08-22-2016 1:28 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 32 by jar, posted 08-22-2016 1:49 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 33 of 175 (789950)
    08-22-2016 2:13 PM
    Reply to: Message 32 by jar
    08-22-2016 1:49 PM


    Re: The Need For Divine Intervention
    You want me to defend your position? Touche

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 32 by jar, posted 08-22-2016 1:49 PM jar has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 34 of 175 (790283)
    08-29-2016 3:42 AM
    Reply to: Message 32 by jar
    08-22-2016 1:49 PM


    Re: The Need For Divine Intervention
    Well anyway, lets move on to the Humanist Manifesto III the final of three manifestos.
    Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without super-naturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.

    The life-stance of Humanism—guided by reason, inspired by compassion, and informed by experience—encourages us to live life well and fully. It evolved through the ages and continues to develop through the efforts of thoughtful people who recognize that values and ideals, however carefully wrought, are subject to change as our knowledge and understandings advance.

    This document is part of an ongoing effort to manifest in clear and positive terms the conceptual boundaries of Humanism, not what we must believe but a consensus of what we do believe. It is in this sense that we affirm the following:

  • Knowledge of the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational analysis. Humanists find that science is the best method for determining this knowledge as well as for solving problems and developing beneficial technologies. We also recognize the value of new departures in thought, the arts, and inner experience—each subject to analysis by critical intelligence.
  • I guess I find nothing wrong with this affirmation. Rational thought is always better than jumping to dogmatic conclusions.
  • Humans are an integral part of nature, the result of unguided evolutionary change. Humanists recognize nature as self-existing. We accept our life as all and enough, distinguishing things as they are from things as we might wish or imagine them to be. We welcome the challenges of the future, and are drawn to and undaunted by the yet to be known.
  • I wish I could be so optimistic, but I am haunted by the beliefs that I adopted which said that in the so-called End Times people would reject organized religion and embrace just this sort of philosophy. A character known as the AntiChrist would then come to power and cause living hell for 7 years or so before Jesus came back and took names...correcting the evil attempt at dominance. Im not sure exactly what I believe regarding end times any more.
  • Ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience. Humanists ground values in human welfare shaped by human circumstances, interests, and concerns and extended to the global ecosystem and beyond. We are committed to treating each person as having inherent worth and dignity, and to making informed choices in a context of freedom consonant with responsibility.
  • If jar is right and Original Sin was only a made-up con job than this statement will work. Otherwise we are headed for trouble.
  • Life's fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals. We aim for our fullest possible development and animate our lives with a deep sense of purpose, finding wonder and awe in the joys and beauties of human existence, its challenges and tragedies, and even in the inevitability and finality of death. Humanists rely on the rich heritage of human culture and the life stance of Humanism to provide comfort in times of want and encouragement in times of plenty.

  • Humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships. Humanists long for and strive toward a world of mutual care and concern, free of cruelty and its consequences, where differences are resolved cooperatively without resorting to violence. The joining of individuality with interdependence enriches our lives, encourages us to enrich the lives of others, and inspires hope of attaining peace, justice, and opportunity for all.

  • Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness. Progressive cultures have worked to free humanity from the brutalities of mere survival and to reduce suffering, improve society, and develop global community. We seek to minimize the inequities of circumstance and ability, and we support a just distribution of nature's resources and the fruits of human effort so that as many as possible can enjoy a good life.

  • Humanists are concerned for the well being of all, are committed to diversity, and respect those of differing yet humane views. We work to uphold the equal enjoyment of human rights and civil liberties in an open, secular society and maintain it is a civic duty to participate in the democratic process and a planetary duty to protect nature's integrity, diversity, and beauty in a secure, sustainable manner.

  • Thus engaged in the flow of life, we aspire to this vision with the informed conviction that humanity has the ability to progress toward its highest ideals. The responsibility for our lives and the kind of world in which we live is ours and ours alone.
  • If anything at all worries me about this third manifesto, it is the idea of an interdependent one world system. I am skeptical whether such a system will preserve our standard of living. I am skeptical whether or not folks will get along naturally. I am fearful of the dogma I was taught concerning the last days and whether or not it will come true. I am honestly fearful of throwing god away.

    Finally, even though i am a dogmatic obstructionist at heart, I am one of the better ones...for I am smarter than most of them. I worry about what the Biblical Christians will do when faced with the possibility of such a world.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 32 by jar, posted 08-22-2016 1:49 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 35 by Faith, posted 08-29-2016 5:11 AM Phat has responded
     Message 45 by Riggamortis, posted 08-30-2016 6:03 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 46 by Riggamortis, posted 08-30-2016 6:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 54 by Modulous, posted 09-15-2016 5:36 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 40 of 175 (790309)
    08-29-2016 10:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 39 by Faith
    08-29-2016 10:06 AM


    Re: End Times?
    Is there any way to fit this into the topic or is it hopelessly lost?
    It applies only in that the Humanist manifestos are similar to what many Christian End Timers have been saying will be the new touchy feely global religion---a religion free of dogma and absolutes where humans simply love each other---no God needed.
    I could almost see Donald Trump entering the Temple and telling God He was fired!
    The Antichrist will affirm the god within all of us and claim that there is no external Deity---that we are the only god there ever will be.(Sounds a bit like Greatest I AM)
    Gnostic Humanist Christianity---aligned with a new pacifist Islam and other former global religions...seems like a great idea but again, as i have said before...only if jars belief that there is no such thing as Original Sin is proven true. In which case jar would be right in that there is no need for Divine Intervention nor a Second Coming. He believes that WE humans are ultimately responsible.
    Time will tell which belief turns out to be correct.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 39 by Faith, posted 08-29-2016 10:06 AM Faith has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 41 by jar, posted 08-29-2016 10:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 42 by ringo, posted 08-29-2016 12:12 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 43 of 175 (790341)
    08-29-2016 3:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
    08-29-2016 12:12 PM


    Re: End Times?
    Any discussion of original sin can continue here.

    ringo writes:

    The Christian End Timers have a vested interest in circling the wagons against the world. "Bring your cash inside the circle. Don't waste it on touchy feely things like feeding the hungry. Give it to us and we'll use it for the Glory of God."

    I seriously doubt whether all or even most Of the so-called Christian End timers believe this way. They know darn well that money will be all but worthless. They like gold, however.

    As far as the touchy feely...we realize that feeding the world is noble. What we worry about is the idea that god is in all of us and that an external Deity is un needed. This will prove to be a giant lie for society...to fall for this innocent and benevolent sounding altruistic belief.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 42 by ringo, posted 08-29-2016 12:12 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 48 by ringo, posted 08-30-2016 11:49 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 50 of 175 (790456)
    08-30-2016 12:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 49 by ringo
    08-30-2016 11:58 AM


    Re: End Times?
    ringo writes:

    It's the fundies who will follow the AntiChrist while the rest of the world gets more secular. Fundies are just itching for somebody like Ronald Reagan to take us back to the "good old days".

    I don't plan to vote for Trump. He won't get elected.

    As for the yearning for the good old days, I will admit that this may be a problem for many so-called Biblical Christians. Jesus would have no problem suffering...but we do.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 49 by ringo, posted 08-30-2016 11:58 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 51 by ringo, posted 08-30-2016 1:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 64 by Phat, posted 06-20-2017 2:33 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15465
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 57 of 175 (791539)
    09-16-2016 1:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 56 by Taq
    09-16-2016 12:44 PM


    Re: Where is the problem?
    You actually think that reality conforms to your beliefs. Not only that, but you refuse to even consider that you are wrong.
    To be honest, reality "changed" when I got saved. I know it sounds illogical and that there are ready psychological explanations for this, but I believe that I was filled with a new worldview. The church didnt brainwash this, though the teachings largely confirmed it.
    Humanism takes the much more humble and logical approach of always assuming that you could be wrong, and understanding that our beliefs must conform to reality.
    And this is what jar tries to teach. The reason that I dont agree with his beliefs is because he doesnt get the "saved" thing....and i confess I didnt expect it. I changed totally in one day...critics will argue that even Saul becoming Paul was a minor thing...but I am convinced that this phenomenon happens. I know you guys have the more logical argument here...objectively at least.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by Taq, posted 09-16-2016 12:44 PM Taq has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 58 by ringo, posted 09-16-2016 1:18 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 59 by Taq, posted 09-16-2016 2:08 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 60 by Modulous, posted 09-16-2016 2:40 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
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