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Author Topic:   A Believers Critique Of The Humanist Manifesto
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 3 of 175 (789849)
08-20-2016 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
08-20-2016 6:38 PM


Where is the problem?
Phat writes:

Everything that I have read from Biblical Christians (who critics call conservative,uninformed, and in a realm of fantasy versus reality) indicates that the world will by and large reject all forms of organized religion due to the fundamentalist oppressive nature of its tenets and will embrace a form of belief in the human animal and our collective potential known as secular humanism.

And if that should happen, where is the problem? Speaking as a Christian and Theist, the evidence seems to show that overall, membership in some religious organization is still relatively common and strong but where is the problem if religions were abandoned?

Phat writes:

What does the evidence show us regarding international relations, global finance, the steady decline of the United States both morally and financially, and the rise of false religion the world over?

Well the evidence show us that international relations have never been as peaceful and cooperative as they are today. Nor is there any evidence of a decline of the United States morally or financially. The most common false religion today seems to be "Biblical Evangelical Fundamentalist Christianity" perhaps followed at a great distance by Radical Fundamentalist Islam.

Phat writes:

Or are the Christian literalists right? Are we all doomed to a bleak future by our actions of rejecting God and seeking to deify ourselves as the ultimate source of wisdom and logic?

You have not shown how rejecting any god or acknowledging humanity as the source of wisdom and logic might be a problem or how there could be any other source of wisdom and logic than humans.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 08-20-2016 6:38 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 08-21-2016 7:18 PM jar has responded
 Message 175 by Phat, posted 02-22-2020 8:08 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(3)
Message 9 of 175 (789877)
08-21-2016 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
08-21-2016 7:18 PM


Re: Where is the problem?
Phat writes:

The sad thing is, you would probably agree with them on this, jar. And to say that you are a Christian! You have denied Christ in favor of logic, reason, and reality. Its ironic that the so-called reality you embrace is but an illusion in the grand scheme of things. The humanists will, however someday find out that they were wrong all along. The Holy Spirit trumps any sort of scientific "spirit" mentioned.

Try telling the truth for a change Phat and stop lying.

Phat writes:

This one isn't so bad. The only danger I see in this affirmation is to state that man is no more special or unique than any other animal. It is quite obvious that no other animal has approached our level of development. God appeared to us as a man. Not a dolphin. Not a Bird. Not an alien. I see no problem with a cautious belief and acknowledgement of biological evolution...provided that ancient religious beliefs are not simply discarded wholesale as human ignorance. There is much that the scientific mind of today cannot prove nor disprove regarding spirituality. Absence of evidence should never conclude evidence of absence.

Humans wrote the stories in the Bibles and wrote them for humans and so of course the characters in the stories are humans.

What is wrong with disregarding ancient religious beliefs? You disregard almost all ancient religious beliefs. You disregard Thor and Zeus and Apollo and Coyote and Ganesha and Ra and Anubus and Ma'at and Eros and Uranus and Shiva and Brahma as well as literally thousands of other ancient gods and religious beliefs. You discard Islam and Judaism and Taoism and Confucianism and Zoroastrianism and Hinduism and Buddism and Shintoism as well as the German and Norse and English and Celtic pagan religions.

Phat writes:

I would agree except to state that God was made man in order to interact with humanity and that even though this is only a belief it is not fair or proper to reject this belief. After all, who made the humanists any sort of final authority on belief?

The same folk that made you a final authority Phat.

Phat writes:

Right here says it all. They have declared themselves in opposition to Theism.

And what is wrong with that?

You go on and on echoing your disagreement but you never present any support or reason or logic for why your position has any more merit than their position.

Edited by jar, : forgot to include the paragraph where Phat again misrepresents my position and alleges facts not in evidence.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 08-21-2016 7:18 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 08-21-2016 10:03 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 11 of 175 (789889)
08-21-2016 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
08-21-2016 10:03 PM


Re: Where is the problem?
Phat writes:

jar writes:

You disregard almost all ancient religious beliefs. You disregard Thor and Zeus and Apollo and Coyote and Ganesha and Ra and Anubis and Ma'at and Eros and Uranus and Shiva and Brahma as well as literally thousands of other ancient gods and religious beliefs. You discard Islam and Judaism and Taoism and Confucianism and Zoroastrianism and Hinduism and Buddhism and Shintoism as well as the German and Norse and English and Celtic pagan religions.

Some folks believe that there are many truths. I believe there is one truth. Some folks believe that there are many ways to believe and that it is arrogant to assume that one has the correct belief if such a thing exists. Perhaps I am arrogant, but I find it hard to compromise without weakening my basic stance.

Yet you disregard many ancient religious beliefs so what is wrong with disregarding one more?

Phat writes:

jar writes:

You go on and on echoing your disagreement but you never present any support or reason or logic for why your position has any more merit than their position.

Quite likely I am, as Dr.A. suggests, a presuppositionalist.

Which may well be true but offers nothing to support that position.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 08-21-2016 10:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(3)
Message 16 of 175 (789913)
08-22-2016 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
08-22-2016 5:32 AM


Re: Where is the problem?
Phat writes:

The United States won't like being displaced as global cop by a one world system.

And where is the problem there? You are aware Phat that there are these things called Treaties?

Next...From your quote:

quote:
We believe, however, that traditional dogmatic or authoritarian religions that place revelation, God, ritual, or creed above human needs and experience do a disservice to the human species. Any account of nature should pass the tests of scientific evidence; in our judgment, the dogmas and myths of traditional religions do not do so.

Compare that to the comment from The Rt. Rev. Bennett J. Sims, Episcopal Bishop of Atlanta in A Pastoral Statement on Creation and Evolution.

quote:
It seems important that the Episcopal Church in this diocese add to its brief resolution a statement of its own teaching. The office of Bishop is historically a teaching office, and I believe it is timely to offer instruction as to this Church's understanding of what has become a contested public issue.

To begin with creation is a fact. The world exists. We exist. Evolution is a theory. As a theory, evolution expresses human response to the fact of creation, since existence raises questions: how did creation come to be, and why?

The question of why is the deeper one. It takes us into the realm of value and purpose. This urgent inquiry is expressed in human history through religion and statements of faith. Christians cherish the Bible as the source book of appropriating the point and purpose of life. We regard the Bible as the Word of God, His revelation of Himself, the meaning of His work and the place of humanity in it.

The question of how is secondary, because human life has been lived heroically and to high purpose with the most primitive knowledge of the how of creation. Exploration of this secondary question is the work of science. Despite enormous scientific achievement, humanity continues to live with large uncertainty. Science, advancing on the question of how, will always raise as many questions as it answers. The stars of the exterior heavens beyond us and the subatomic structure of the interior deep beneath us beckon research as never before.

Religion and science are therefore distinguishable, but in some sense inseparable, because each is an enterprise, more or less, of every human being who asks why and how in dealing with existence. Religion and science interrelate as land and water, which are clearly not the same but need each other, since the land is the basin for all the waters of the earth and yet without the waters the land would be barren of the life inherent to its soil.

In the Bible the intermingling of why and how is evident, especially in the opening chapters of Genesis. There the majestic statements of God's action, its value and the place of humanity in it, use an orderly and sequential statement of method. The why of the divine work is carried in a primitive description of how the work was done.

But even here the distinction between religion and science is clear. In Genesis there is not one creation statement but two. They agree as to why and who, but are quite different as to how and when. The statements are set forth in tandem, chapter one of Genesis using one description of method and chapter two another. According to the first, humanity was created, male and female, after the creation of plants and animals. According to the second, man was created first, then the trees, the animals and finally the woman and not from the earth as in the first account, but from the rib of the man. Textual research shows that these two accounts are from two distinct eras, the first later in history, the second earlier.

From this evidence, internal to the very text of the Bible, we draw two conclusions.

First, God's revelation of purpose is the overarching constant. The creation is not accidental, aimless, devoid of feeling. Creation is the work of an orderly, purposeful Goodness. Beneath and around the cosmos are the everlasting arms. Touching the cosmos at every point of its advance, in depth and height, is a sovereign beauty and tenderness. Humanity is brooded over by an invincible Love that values the whole of the world as very good; that is the first deduction: God is constant.

Second, creation itself and the human factors are inconstant. Creation moves and changes. Human understanding moves and changes. Evolution as a contemporary description of the how of creation is anticipated in its newness by the very fluidity of the biblical text by the Bible's use of two distinct statements of human comprehension at the time of writing. As a theoretical deduction from the most careful and massive observation of the creation, the layers and deposits and undulations of this ever­changing old earth, evolution is itself a fluid perception. It raises as many questions as it answers. Evolution represents the best formulation of the knowledge that creation has disclosed to us, but it is the latest word from science, not the last.

If the world is not God's, the most eloquent or belligerent arguments will not make it so. If it is God's world, and this is the first declaration of our creed, then faith has no fear of anything the world itself reveals to the searching eye of science.

Insistence upon dated and partially contradictory statements of how as conditions for true belief in the why of creation cannot qualify either as faithful religion or as intelligent science. Neither evolution over an immensity of time nor the work done in a six­day week are articles of the creeds. It is a symptom of fearful and unsound religion to contend with one another as if they were. Historic creedal Christianity joyfully insists on God as sovereign and frees the human spirit to trust and seek that sovereignty in a world full of surprises.


Seems he agrees with the Manifesto position.

Phat writes:

Jar,you have often mentioned responsibility as being the ingredient lacking in Biblical Christianity. Sounds like these humanists are preaching to a friendly choir here at EvC apart from dogmatic obstructionists such as myself!

I simply try to repeat the Gospel Jesus preached. He preached responsibility and if you were honest you would realize that WE are responsible.

Phat writes:

In other words, they would deride the basic Biblical Christian assumption of Original Sin. They do have a positive outlook, however.

And rightly so since Original Sin is just a pitiful copout and the most profitable con game of all time.

Phat writes:

And how will terrorism suddenly go away? How will that problem be solved?

No God ever solved terrorism, only humans can solve terrorism.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 08-22-2016 5:32 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 18 of 175 (789915)
08-22-2016 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Riggamortis
08-22-2016 9:36 AM


Re: Where is the problem?
Some background.

I am a lifelong theist and Christian who is a member of one of the larger recognized sects.

Phat and I have been having this same discussion now for over a decade and there is a suggestion I have often made that relates to the second paragraph of your post.

Ask Phat what I keep telling him to throw away.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Riggamortis, posted 08-22-2016 9:36 AM Riggamortis has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 20 of 175 (789917)
08-22-2016 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Phat
08-22-2016 9:54 AM


Re: The Need For Divine Intervention
But again, what is The Need For Divine Intervention?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 08-22-2016 9:54 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 08-22-2016 10:39 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 22 of 175 (789921)
08-22-2016 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
08-22-2016 10:39 AM


Re: The Need For Divine Intervention
Phat writes:

You can answer your own question by answering this: What is the need for a second coming?

Actually no, that don't help. Is there a need for a second coming or is that just another example only pertinent to a particular subset of dogma?

So again, what is The Need For Divine Intervention?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 08-22-2016 10:39 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 08-22-2016 10:53 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 25 of 175 (789924)
08-22-2016 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
08-22-2016 10:53 AM


Re: The Need For Divine Intervention
Phat writes:

And to answer your question, Divine Intervention is needed if humans fail.

Why is Divine Intervention needed even in that situation? Isn't it better to say "Human's, don't keep screwing this up?" And even if we look at the Bible stories, none talk about God stepping in and making things right but lots of the stories talk about God saying "You keep screwing up you gonna suffer!".

Phat writes:

In the past, the nation itself would repent and pray for Divine Intervention.

And in the past there are no examples of God listening and intervening. Only humans do that.

Phat writes:

These days its hard telling what people would do.

Thank God more and more people are saying "Well it's our responsibility to deal with the problems and not expect God to fix them!"


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 08-22-2016 10:53 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 08-22-2016 1:09 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 30 of 175 (789937)
08-22-2016 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
08-22-2016 1:09 PM


Re: The Need For Divine Intervention
What exactly does the picture you posted have to do with what I said?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 08-22-2016 1:09 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 08-22-2016 1:47 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 32 of 175 (789945)
08-22-2016 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
08-22-2016 1:47 PM


Re: The Need For Divine Intervention
Phat writes:

You don't get it? Shall I say thats pitiful?

Yup, I don't get it and what is pitiful?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 08-22-2016 1:47 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 08-22-2016 2:13 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 08-29-2016 3:42 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 41 of 175 (790311)
08-29-2016 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
08-29-2016 10:37 AM


Re: End Times?
Again Phat, let me say what I believe.

Phat writes:

Gnostic Humanist Christianity---aligned with a new pacifist Islam and other former global religions...seems like a great idea but again, as i have said before...only if jars belief that there is no such thing as Original Sin is proven true. In which case jar would be right in that there is no need for Divine Intervention nor a Second Coming. He believes that WE humans are ultimately responsible.

And think about what you write. If humans are not ultimately responsible then God is responsible for all the problems. Or God is unable to successfully oppose some other force or unwilling to.

That makes God a royal asshole.

But what I actually say is that even if Original Sin were real it is irrelevant. We are still responsible for what we do.

The great con is selling the idea that some belief or act or payment can mediate the effects of Original Sin. And it is both a very successful con as well as an absolutely legal con; bettern the lottery.

It is selling the idea that God or Jesus will assume your debts.

But the reality is that there is no evidence that God has actively intervened in the past.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 08-29-2016 10:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 62 of 175 (812695)
06-19-2017 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
06-19-2017 1:35 PM


Re: End Times?
Phat writes:

As you know, conservative Christians warn this to be an omen of a false global religion.

Why should the beliefs of conservative Christians be anything but comedic relief?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 06-19-2017 1:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(3)
Message 68 of 175 (812955)
06-21-2017 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
06-21-2017 1:52 PM


Re: End Times?
Phat writes:

Aren't YOU a Christian? and now that I think of it...aren't you conservative also?

I am a Christian.

I am a conservative, but not a raving lunatic fascist conservative which seems the norm in today's Republican cabal.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 06-21-2017 1:52 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 96 of 175 (813810)
06-30-2017 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
06-30-2017 9:25 PM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
Let's see if the Mosque and Temple and Satanist Cabal are given the same funding.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 06-30-2017 9:25 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 06-30-2017 11:17 PM jar has responded
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 07-01-2017 8:46 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 99 of 175 (813828)
07-01-2017 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
06-30-2017 11:17 PM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
Faith writes:

Trust jar to be sure we have lots of wolves in the hen house.

We live in the US faith. If public money are used to fund a Christian School playground then the local Madrassa has exactly the same rights to public funds.

Religious Freedom means the Muslim Faith must be treated like the Christian Faith. Jewish Faith must be treated like the Christian Faith. Satanist Faith must be treated like the Christian Faith. Buddhist Faith must be treated like the Christian Faith. Hindu Faith must be treated like the Christian Faith.

Thank God!


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 06-30-2017 11:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 8:31 AM jar has responded

  
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