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Author Topic:   A Believers Critique Of The Humanist Manifesto
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 6 of 175 (789859)
08-21-2016 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
08-20-2016 6:38 PM


Phat writes:

Everything that I have read from Biblical Christians (who critics call conservative,uninformed, and in a realm of fantasy versus reality) indicates that the world will by and large reject all forms of organized religion due to the fundamentalist oppressive nature of its tenets and will embrace a form of belief in the human animal and our collective potential known as secular humanism.

Of course, this is inevitable and has already happened successfully in most of Western Europe. Knowledge will always overcome superstition.

What does the evidence show us regarding international relations, global finance, the steady decline of the United States both morally and financially, and the rise of false religion the world over?

How are you measuring this financial and moral decline? You've abolished slavery, you no longer hunt and kill aboriginal Americans, you're beginning to understand your racism. You've developed powerful institutions of social justice, education and healthcare. Finacially you're the richest country in the world. You guys need to get out more. You've got a long way to go dealing with inequality and poverty but you've come a long way in a couple of hundred years.

And what's this false religion bollocks? All religions are false except the one you were personally born into? Religious belief is not rising, it's falling. Where are you getting these myths from?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 08-20-2016 6:38 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 06-30-2017 9:25 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 11-16-2019 3:42 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 13 of 175 (789904)
08-22-2016 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
08-21-2016 7:18 PM


Re: Where is the problem?
Astonishing isn't it, some people have beliefs that differ from yours?

Phat writes:

Perhaps I am arrogant, but I find it hard to compromise without weakening my basic stance.

Well, exactly. Other views - however reasonable or evidence based - must be dismissed at all costs because they might challenge your own. If there was one single reason why irrational belief sysyems need to be replaced, this is it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 08-21-2016 7:18 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 36 of 175 (790290)
08-29-2016 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
08-29-2016 5:11 AM


Re: End Times?
Faith writes:

I'm also not sure what to expect but more and more Christians are expecting some kind of worldwide political manifestation soon that is thought of as a Final Act before Jesus returns

Nope factually wrong yet again.

Christians have been saying this since the crucifiction. Never happened, never will.

Now there are fewer Christians and, of those, fewer fundies believing daft things like that. You're a dwinding minority.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 08-29-2016 5:11 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 08-29-2016 7:25 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 38 of 175 (790303)
08-29-2016 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
08-29-2016 7:25 AM


Re: End Times?
Faith writes:

But perhaps I'm missing what you think is my factual error? Please enlighten.

1. The absolute and relative decline of Christianity
2. The absolute and relative decline of biblical fundamentalism amongst Christians
3. The abject failure of all prior predictions of end-times.

Do I really need to provide you with numbers? You are hearing more because you want to hear it. When you buy a new car you start to see them everywhere. It's all very obvious stuff. You have no sense of history or perspective.

Ah, that old canard. Oh well.

Yes, the one where prophets predict the end of the world in every generation and it doesn't happen.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 08-29-2016 7:25 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 08-29-2016 10:06 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(4)
Message 47 of 175 (790396)
08-30-2016 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Faith
08-29-2016 10:06 AM


Re: End Times?
Faith writes:

However, assuming you are right it makes an interesting bit of evidence FOR The end times,........The failure of prior predictions is a really weird one, since rather than proving the prophecies wrong it just brings us closer to their fulfillment.

Heads you win, tails I lose huh?

It's a fascinating example of confirmation bias - you find evidence for your beliefs in both the failure of prophecy and the future success of prophecy because of its failure.
Extraordinary.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 08-29-2016 10:06 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(3)
Message 55 of 175 (791479)
09-16-2016 3:33 AM


Humanism is Christianity without the myth, magic and mania.

Or something like that TM.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 72 of 175 (813438)
06-27-2017 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phat
06-27-2017 1:12 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
Phat writes:

I am not marketing Leprechauns, here.

But you are Phat, you are.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 06-27-2017 1:12 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 98 of 175 (813825)
07-01-2017 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
06-30-2017 9:25 PM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
Phat writes:

It seems that the battle is far from over.

Of course it isn't. There are still whole swards of the world consumed by religion. Religion has had people by the throat for thousands of years - it's only been challenged by reason for a couple of hundred.

The American Humanist Association, a staunch defender of Scientific Integrity recently derided the US Supreme Court for allowing a church to receive federal funding.

Quite rightly.

AHA Condemns Supreme Court Ruling Sending Tax Dollars to Churches
I would argue that at least some of the taxpayers are Christians...and the church playground benefits secular kids as well...

So what? Separation means separation - if the state is funding churches it's not separate from them.

The issue in my mind is not simply separation of church and state. It is a test as to who calls the shots.

It's simple, the answer is the state. How can it be anything else? The state represents ALL the people not just some of them. You have to ask 'which church?' Every believer will assume it's theirs and not the others. That's why separation was decided right at the beginning by your founders.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 06-30-2017 9:25 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Chiroptera, posted 07-01-2017 10:33 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 07-11-2017 3:33 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 11-16-2019 3:52 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8209
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(3)
Message 169 of 175 (866973)
11-18-2019 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Phat
11-18-2019 5:09 AM


Re: The Coming Apocalypse: Secular Humanist Version.
There's very good, objective reasons why the entirety of humanity should be discussing how we're affecting our planet and then rolling our sleeves up to do something about it.

That's totally different to fundamentalist idiots telling us that god is going to bring about the end of the world next week because of gay marriage or some other such bollox supposedly written by near cavemen thousands of years ago.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 11-18-2019 5:09 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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