Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8950 total)
26 online now:
caffeine, PaulK, Tangle, vimesey (4 members, 22 visitors)
Newest Member: Mikee
Post Volume: Total: 867,077 Year: 22,113/19,786 Month: 676/1,834 Week: 176/500 Day: 4/69 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   A Believers Critique Of The Humanist Manifesto
Admin
Director
Posts: 12653
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 151 of 174 (866889)
11-16-2019 9:30 PM


Fix Faith’s Disallowed Words List
I had a typo in Faith’s disallowed words list, fixed now. Apologies.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 152 of 174 (866897)
11-17-2019 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by ringo
11-16-2019 11:51 AM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
ringo writes:

Faith writes:

I didn't say they OBEYED the law, I merely stated the law.

It's not a law. The Commandments mention no such law.

It is considered to be a law, called a "Creation Ordinance" and we are to obey the Creation Ordinances as laws. There is only one other I know of -- "be fruitful and multiply" -- but there may be more:

Ligonier Ministries

THANK YOU PERCY FOR EASING UP ON THE **********.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by ringo, posted 11-16-2019 11:51 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by ringo, posted 11-17-2019 1:18 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 153 of 174 (866898)
11-17-2019 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by AZPaul3
11-16-2019 5:46 PM


The Beginning of the death of freedom in the USA
Of course it's still a free country. You are free to obey your god to your hearts content. No one is going to **** you that right.
But everyone else is also free to obey their own gods or lack thereof without any interference from you.

No, I believe it is not a free country any more when a Christian cannot obey God without being punished for it, as the businesses who refused to cater a gay wedding were punished.. It's just the beginning of worse to come as I and many others see it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by AZPaul3, posted 11-16-2019 5:46 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by jar, posted 11-17-2019 8:09 AM Faith has responded
 Message 156 by PaulK, posted 11-17-2019 8:16 AM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 154 of 174 (866899)
11-17-2019 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Faith
11-17-2019 8:02 AM


Re: The Beginning of the death of freedom in the USA
Faith writes:

No, I believe it is not a free country any more when a Christian cannot obey God without being punished for it, as the businesses who refused to cater a gay wedding were punished..

But it was not "Christians", rather just a simple cultist Chapter of Club Christian. They were treated no differently that other Christian cults that have practices that break laws like dancing with venomous serpents, drinking poison or practicing polygamy.

It is not God's Law you are obeying but simply the dogma of your particular Chapter of Club Christian.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 8:02 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 8:16 AM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 155 of 174 (866900)
11-17-2019 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by jar
11-17-2019 8:09 AM


Re: The Beginning of the death of freedom in the USA
No, the Christians who were punished for obeying God are the true Biblical Christians, no cult, and each of those business owners understood the ***** in the same way independently of one another, because it is standard Biblical teaching: A man shall leave his ****** and mother and cleave unto his wife. There has never been any doubt in mainline Christianityh as to what that means, it is indeed God's law, called a Creation Ordinance, and it does not include homosexual partners. So we will be punished for taking this stand in a country that has validated gay marriage.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by jar, posted 11-17-2019 8:09 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by jar, posted 11-17-2019 8:18 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15644
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 156 of 174 (866901)
11-17-2019 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Faith
11-17-2019 8:02 AM


Re: The Beginning of the death of freedom in the USA
quote:
No, I believe it is not a free country any more when a Christian cannot obey God without being punished for it, as the businesses who refused to cater a gay wedding were punished..

Except that they are disobeying God. There is no rule forbidding catering to gay wedding parties. And before you argue that they believed that they were obeying God, the exact same may be said of segregationists who also disobeyed anti-discrimination laws.

quote:
It's just the beginning of worse to come as I and many others see it.

The descent of the Right is of far greater concern to anyone with any sense.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 8:02 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 8:22 AM PaulK has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 157 of 174 (866902)
11-17-2019 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Faith
11-17-2019 8:16 AM


Re: The Beginning of the death of freedom in the USA
Just like the cult members that believe God commands them to take up snakes or drink poison or have multiple wives.

You can claim your "True Christian" status all you want but it is no more legitimate than any other silly claim.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 8:16 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 158 of 174 (866903)
11-17-2019 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by PaulK
11-17-2019 8:16 AM


Re: The Beginning of the death of freedom in the USA
You may not dictate what Christians believe. It is clear to us that a gay wedding violates the Creation Ordinance of marriage between a man and a woman and that if we participate in a gay wedding we are violating that law. All the businesses put in the position of being asked to cater to a gay wedding understood that it violates God's law and had to obey that law instead of the secular law.

But this is all I want to say about this. It's off topic of course as the last few pages have all been off topic, and there is nothing more to say about it anyway.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by PaulK, posted 11-17-2019 8:16 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by PaulK, posted 11-17-2019 8:41 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15644
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 159 of 174 (866904)
11-17-2019 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Faith
11-17-2019 8:22 AM


Re: The Beginning of the death of freedom in the USA
quote:
You may not dictate what Christians believe.

And I clearly did not do so.

quote:
It is clear to us that a gay wedding violates the Creation Ordinance of marriage between a man and a woman and that if we participate in a gay wedding we are violating that law.

But you obviously would not be violating that law if all you do is provide paid services. Anyone who marries before being able to move out of their parents home more clearly violates that “law” and yet I doubt very much that you would object.

quote:
All the businesses put in the position of being asked to cater to a gay wedding understood that it violates God's law and had to obey that law instead of the secular law

And yet there is nothing in “God’s law” that justifies such a stance, but there is a requirement to follow the secular law.

quote:
But this is all I want to say about this

Indeed, you have no answer to the fact that your position hardly differs from that of a die-hard segregationist. The only difference is that you are fine with discrimination against gays. Yet you have no better claim of persecution, nor any cause to say that there is any great loss of freedom in extending that anti-discrimination laws to protect gays.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 8:22 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 160 of 174 (866923)
11-17-2019 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Faith
11-17-2019 7:57 AM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
Faith writes:

It is considered to be a law, called a "Creation Ordinance" and we are to obey the Creation Ordinances as laws.


That's reverse engineering - i.e. adjusting the Bible to fit the doctrine.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 7:57 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 1:24 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 161 of 174 (866924)
11-17-2019 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by ringo
11-17-2019 1:18 PM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
I suspect it is simply how men of superior spirituality understand the *****.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by ringo, posted 11-17-2019 1:18 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by ringo, posted 11-17-2019 1:30 PM Faith has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 162 of 174 (866925)
11-17-2019 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by jar
11-16-2019 7:53 PM


Re: Back towards the topic.
jar writes:

The issue is testing what the Apologists say and so far you have not presented even one example of an Apologist that stands up to even cursory scrutiny.

As I have tried to tell you over and over and over again. Christianity is not fully supportable by or through evidence. Christianity is a tested belief. A belief validated through scripture, the experience of believers, and countless testimonies that corroborate each other despite having separate incidents and locations. I realize that you actually laugh at this type of Christianity. (or call it sad and pitiful, for some odd reason) I feel that you have never allowed yourself to believe anything without evidence. Its almost as if you have to actually see an event happen before you will ever allow it to be true in your mind. In addition, much of what you believe has been concluded through evidence, logic, and reason. I'm not saying you are wrong, though I'm saying that what you consider foolish may, in fact, be the right answers.

And recently you brought up the Harvard Divinity Schools synopsis of the humanist manifesto. From that article:

Recurring themes of the Humanist Manifestos include agreement on the dismissal of the supernatural, the centrality of human potential, and the need for a global community that seeks to maximize the good of humanity.
Supernatural manifestations are one of the clearest signs that point to the reality of God's presence among us. To dismiss these simply on the lack of objective measurable evidence is willful ignorance at best. Granted much of it is faked...but I don't believe that all of it is. Human potential is nice, but throwing God away is not the answer. Atheists always claim to be a large minority, but atheism is gaining ground intellectually largely due to the efforts of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, and Dennet. The Four Horsemen are a big threat. Though you claim to be a believer, you lean more towards their side than you do the apologists, not all of whom lie and misrepresent anything. Why you and Theodoric claim they do cause a call for evidence.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by jar, posted 11-16-2019 7:53 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by jar, posted 11-17-2019 1:52 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 163 of 174 (866926)
11-17-2019 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Faith
11-17-2019 1:24 PM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
Faith writes:

I suspect it is simply how men of superior spirituality understand the *****.


No such thing as "superior spirituality". Jesus Himself recommended the understanding of a child.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 1:24 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 1:33 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 164 of 174 (866927)
11-17-2019 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by ringo
11-17-2019 1:30 PM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
The understanding of a child IS superior spirituality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by ringo, posted 11-17-2019 1:30 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by ringo, posted 11-17-2019 1:35 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 165 of 174 (866929)
11-17-2019 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Faith
11-17-2019 1:33 PM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
Faith writes:

The understanding of a child IS superior spirituality.


Amen. But you're contradicting yourself. It isn't the understanding of a child that puts your definition on marriage.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 1:33 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019