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Author Topic:   A Believers Critique Of The Humanist Manifesto
jar
Member
Posts: 32362
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 166 of 175 (866931)
11-17-2019 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Phat
11-17-2019 1:25 PM


Re: Back towards the topic.
Phat writes:

Christianity is not fully supportable by or through evidence. Christianity is a tested belief. A belief validated through scripture, the experience of believers, and countless testimonies that corroborate each other despite having separate incidents and locations.

Word Salad with absolutely no meaning.

I am a Christian. I support my position based on what is actually written in the Bible.

So far you have failed to present a single Apologist that seems to believe what is actually written in the Bible.

Phat writes:

Supernatural manifestations are one of the clearest signs that point to the reality of God's presence among us.

Then present that evidence and the evidence that shows it is a supernatural manifestation.

Phat writes:

Though you claim to be a believer, you lean more towards their side than you do the apologists, not all of whom lie and misrepresent anything.

Then present the evidence that shows an Apologist actually supports what is really written in the Bible and does not just make up shit to explain that the Bible does not mean what it actually says?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 11-17-2019 1:25 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 167 of 175 (866962)
11-18-2019 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by jar
11-17-2019 1:52 PM


Bart Campolo and Secular Humanism Revisited.
I will start a new topic. This topic should focus more on the criticisms and reviews of Secular Humanism. As everyone following my posts knows, I did present an apologist on behalf of secular humanism-Bart Campolo. I have been listening to his podcasts, and am beginning to lean a bit towards the idea that God can and will use other religions to bring his people to Him. As everyone may know, Barts Father was an evangelist--Tony Campolo.
Here is a good podcast which he has done:
Listen to "428: High profile deconversions and secular 'churches'" on Spreaker.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by jar, posted 11-17-2019 1:52 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 11-18-2019 5:09 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 168 of 175 (866967)
11-18-2019 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Phat
11-18-2019 1:39 AM


The Coming Apocalypse: Secular Humanist Version.
Tonight I listened to another podcast by noted secular humanist Bart Campolo. It appears that they too think the world might end. AZ Paul3 and I have discussed apocalyptic teachings before. Tangle, pay attention. You always think that it is the Charismaniacs who squawk about the world ending, but the secular humanists discuss it also---as well as bringing up some positive outlooks in the midst of it all.
quote:
The earth is in trouble and nobody seems to care. That's the observation of Josie, 15, who called the podcast after hearing more and more about humanity's biggest challenges during science class:

Listen to "407: How to cope with coming apocalypse" on Spreaker.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Phat, posted 11-18-2019 1:39 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Tangle, posted 11-18-2019 9:49 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 170 by ringo, posted 11-18-2019 11:18 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7446
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


(3)
Message 169 of 175 (866973)
11-18-2019 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Phat
11-18-2019 5:09 AM


Re: The Coming Apocalypse: Secular Humanist Version.
There's very good, objective reasons why the entirety of humanity should be discussing how we're affecting our planet and then rolling our sleeves up to do something about it.

That's totally different to fundamentalist idiots telling us that god is going to bring about the end of the world next week because of gay marriage or some other such bollox supposedly written by near cavemen thousands of years ago.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 11-18-2019 5:09 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 170 of 175 (866982)
11-18-2019 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Phat
11-18-2019 5:09 AM


Re: The Coming Apocalypse: Secular Humanist Version.
Phat writes:

... noted secular humanist Bart Campolo.


Who's noting him?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 11-18-2019 5:09 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Theodoric, posted 11-18-2019 12:04 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 171 of 175 (866985)
11-18-2019 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by ringo
11-18-2019 11:18 AM


Re: The Coming Apocalypse: Secular Humanist Version.
I was thinking the same thing. Never heard of him. I think fundies can not conceive of the idea that no one speaks for atheists or atheism. What ever this guy has to say has nothing to do with what any other humanist or atheist has to say or what they think. These are his viewpoints. There is no humanist or atheist dogma.
Phat is on his apologist kick and he seems to think his view that Ravi the shyster kicked Sam the misogynists' butt(these are not personal attacks against them, it is reasonable conclusion based upon verifiable evidence). It has no bearing on anything. All a humanist apologist can do is defend their own belief set.
He also seems to be obsessed with the "Four Horsemen". This is a media created designation. I know of no one in the atheist world that considers these guys to be leaders of any sort. The only thing I have in common with Sam Harris is that we both do not have a belief in a god. I don't care about anything he writes or says as it has no effect on my belief set.
Here is a difference between believers and nonbelievers. Believers let and expect apologists determine what they believe. Seemingly they have no confidence to make their own decisions or to even read the plain text of their religious tomes. Nonbelievers will listen to defenders of atheist and humanism, but do not and will not adjust their beliefs to what is said and written. Facts and data drive our belief set, not word salad.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by AZPaul3, posted 11-18-2019 2:05 PM Theodoric has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4861
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


(2)
Message 172 of 175 (866992)
11-18-2019 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Theodoric
11-18-2019 12:04 PM


Re: The Coming Apocalypse: Secular Humanist Version.
Nonbelievers will listen to defenders of atheist and humanism, but do not and will not adjust their beliefs to what is said and written.

Oh, let's not go that far. We're not obstinate ideologues. We do learn and mature. Especially when we're reading Daniel Dennett. What we don't do is adopt every tennent they spout without considerable thought. Whereas religionists are prone to accept and adopt any tennent their favored nutjob decides to spout just because they spout it.

Ok, so a bit pedantic.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Theodoric, posted 11-18-2019 12:04 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Theodoric, posted 11-18-2019 2:55 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 174 by FLRW, posted 11-18-2019 5:46 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 173 of 175 (866994)
11-18-2019 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by AZPaul3
11-18-2019 2:05 PM


Re: The Coming Apocalypse: Secular Humanist Version.
Agreed. Much better than how I put it, but that is the meaning I was actually trying to express.
We listen, learn and mature. What we don't do is take what they say and accept it uncritically.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by AZPaul3, posted 11-18-2019 2:05 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
FLRW
Member (Idle past 46 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 10-08-2007


Message 174 of 175 (866999)
11-18-2019 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by AZPaul3
11-18-2019 2:05 PM


Re: The Coming Apocalypse: Secular Humanist Version.
Human's are only around to create Artificial Intelligence. This is because the Creators could not directly create anything in this simulation we live in. It's time for a better explanation of life than religion can give us. Humans might want to stop this process of making life only livable for rich stupid people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by AZPaul3, posted 11-18-2019 2:05 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 175 of 175 (872217)
02-22-2020 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
08-20-2016 10:07 PM


REMIX In 2020. Aggressive Populism vs Kinder Gentler Humanism
Phat in August of 2016 writes:

Everything that I have read from Biblical Christians (who critics call conservative, uninformed, and in a realm of fantasy versus reality) indicates that the world will, by and large, reject all forms of organized religion due to the fundamentalist oppressive nature of its tenets and will embrace a form of belief in the human-animal and our collective potential known as secular humanism.

What does the evidence show us regarding international relations, global finance, the steady decline of the United States both morally and financially, and the rise of false religion the world over?

Are the secular humanists right? Are religion and ancient beliefs threatening a logical and rational future for our planet and ourselves?

Or are the Christian literalists right? Are we all doomed to a bleak future by our actions of rejecting God and seeking to deify ourselves as the ultimate source of wisdom and logic?

Note that this was shortly before Donald Trump got elected. The world changed after that.

jar, in 2016 BT (Before Trump) writes:

Speaking as a Christian and Theist, the evidence seems to show that overall, membership in some religious organization is still relatively common and strong but where is the problem if religions were abandoned? (...)the evidence shows us that international relations have never been as peaceful and cooperative as they are today. Nor is there any evidence of a decline of the United States morally or financially. The most common false religion today seems to be "Biblical Evangelical Fundamentalist Christianity" perhaps followed at a great distance by Radical Fundamentalist Islam.

Has your perspective changed any since the Trump Effect clouded the intelligence of the media-at-large? At best, I argue that international relations have soured a bit, though the dictators and populists seem to have loosely united throughout the globe.

The End Timers are oddly silent as long as they are making money, and the apocalyptic pronouncements have not focused on leaders such as Mr. Trump. The evangelicals consider him to be a savior type of leader sent by God. This has continued to puzzle me and sets a red light off in my head. Yet I myself get angry if the prospect of actually having to live through times of scarcity is even suggested. I fear I would become an irrational populist reactionary myself---and that is unsettling.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 08-20-2016 10:07 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
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