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Author Topic:   On the origin of life
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 36 of 70 (790688)
09-03-2016 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
09-01-2016 8:20 PM


Re: The Big Lie
Faith writes:

The motivation I suppose comes down to the ancient desire "to be as God" which the serpent proposed would be the result of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


And God confirmed that that happened:
quote:
Genesis 3:22-23 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

The serpent was telling the truth and the "Fall" was a step toward maturity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 09-01-2016 8:20 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 09-03-2016 2:42 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 48 of 70 (790832)
09-06-2016 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
09-03-2016 2:42 PM


Re: The Big Lie
Faith writes:

You choose to believe the serpent; I choose to believe God.


I just quoted what the Bible says: God confirmed that the serpent was telling the truth.

Faith writes:

You either believe God means good to us or not. Obvious you believe the latter, you believe the serpent, and I believe the former.


No you don't. You believe what apologists and commentators have told you. What the Bible actually says is that God and the serpent agreed: Adam and Eve became more like God. That may or may not be "good for us" but it's what the Bible says. If you're going to be a Bible literalist, you shouldn't throw the Bible out the window.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 09-03-2016 2:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 09-06-2016 1:06 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 50 of 70 (790841)
09-06-2016 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
09-06-2016 1:06 PM


Re: The Big Lie
Faith writes:

What Satan didn't say is that by disobeying we would all lose our connection with God, the first stage of death which is what God said would happen, which Satan denied;


God didn't say anything about the "first stage" of death. That's just something apologists made up. He said "death" and He specified the same day.

The "connection with God" thing is also made up and patently false. The Bible describes plenty of connections with God after the supposed "Fall".

Edited by ringo, : Spellin.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 09-06-2016 1:06 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 09-06-2016 1:41 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 54 of 70 (790895)
09-07-2016 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
09-06-2016 1:41 PM


Re: The Big Lie
Faith writes:

They did die the same day, you just don't know what it means.


I know what it means. You're just making up a different "meaning".

Faith writes:

They died spiritually.


It doesn't say that. And even if it was true, Adam and Eve had no way of knowing what "spiritual death" meant, so IF that was what God meant, He was still misleading them.

Faith writes:

If it hadn't been true that they would die then they wouldn't have died physically a thousand years later either, but they did.


You have to change the meaning of "die" and also the meaning of "the same day" for your interpretation to work. You might as well change the meaning of "God" and "serpent" while you're at it. And "tree" and "fruit" and "good" and "evil"....

But I don't suppose you see the irony in making up your own language to "prove" that the Bible is true.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 09-06-2016 1:41 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Pressie, posted 09-08-2016 8:20 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 09-08-2016 10:19 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 57 of 70 (790947)
09-08-2016 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Faith
09-08-2016 10:19 AM


Re: The Big Lie
Faith writes:

As with many things in the Bible, we are to learn from its use of the word "die" that it is not limited to the meaning we ordinarily attach to it.


Like the word "literal". You claim to believe that the Bible is literally true but you really mean your beliefs have nothing to do with what the Bible says.

Faith writes:

If of course you insist on that meaning you cannot learn anything from the Bible, in this case that the word applies to many shades of death.


On the contrary, if you insist on words meaning what they actually mean, you can understand that the Bible is often wrong. You can force the Bible to be "right" by changing the meaning of all of the words - but you could do that with any other book too. You can get Treasure Island to predict who will win the next election if you redefine all of the words.

Faith writes:

... the first thing that happened at the Fall was that Adam and Eve hid from God....


Of course they did, because He lied to them about the consequences. They thought He was going to kill them on the spot.

Faith writes:

You can't really understand the Bible unless you have received the restoration of spiritual ife through Jesus, otherwise known as being "born again," or regenerated or "quickened."


So what do you need the Bible for at all? Why not just go with your "imparted" wisdom?

Edited by ringo, : Spellinge.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 09-08-2016 10:19 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 66 of 70 (791039)
09-09-2016 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Faith
09-09-2016 8:39 AM


Re: The Big Lie
Faith writes:

It's the Bible that dictates how the word "die" is used.


You're partly correct. But you can't use (your misinterpretation of) the New Testament to back up (your misinterpretation of) the Old Testament. Different languages + different times = different context.

Do you have any examples of "spiritual death" in the Old Testament?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 09-09-2016 8:39 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 09-13-2016 8:18 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 68 of 70 (791250)
09-13-2016 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
09-13-2016 8:18 AM


Re: The Big Lie
Faith writes:

As I already said, I think the quintessential example of spiritual death is Adam and Eve's hiding from God (even in sin one should seek God in contrition for forgiveness).


Oh come on. That's egregious, even for you. You can't use one example to back itself up.

Faith writes:

But there is nobody in the OT who doesn't exhibit spiritual death....


I'm asking for examples where the Bible talks about "spiritual death", not just where you read spiritual death into it.

Faith writes:

... Daniel in particular who was fallen too of course but acted with amazing wisdom throughout his life. And Joseph.


You're shooting yourself in the foot. Neither of those examples sounds spiritually dead. Spiritually impaired, maybe, at times, but not dead. God didn't tell Adam and Eve that they would surely suffer from lapses of judgement. He said they'd die.

Faith writes:

Spiritual death is essentially sinfulness, disobedience of God, being out of touch with God, living for self instead of for God and for others, which is true of all of us.


So "spiritual death" is just being human.

You keep ignoring the fact that God Himself said that Adam and Eve had become MORE LIKE HIM, not less.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 09-13-2016 8:18 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
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