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Author Topic:   Case against Kim Davis dismissed
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(5)
Message 4 of 103 (790397)
08-30-2016 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
08-30-2016 5:41 AM


Gay marriage is a violation of God's Law.
So is working on the Sabbath, but I think it's right and proper to cast a dim view on those who would stone people to death for doing so.
As of a week ago, the third gay couple in my circle of friends got engaged, and I couldn't be happier for their joy and love. It's a fabulous step forward in our tolerance and understanding as a society, that we can celebrate and recognise more loving relationships that hurt no one.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 08-30-2016 5:41 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 08-30-2016 8:02 AM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 7 of 103 (790401)
08-30-2016 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
08-30-2016 8:02 AM


It is absolutely possible. You are completely entitled to your opinion.
However, if you choose to state your opinion in a debating website, then I can feel free, I think, to challenge it.
And if someone (not saying you Faith - I'm referring to the other people we've been talking about on this and other threads), moves beyond stating an opinion, into taking actions or withholding something, in such a way as to discriminate against someone, then society is entitled to put limits on that discrimination. Society should not proscribe an opinion - but it should prevent acts of discrimination.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 08-30-2016 8:02 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Faith, posted 08-30-2016 8:23 AM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 10 of 103 (790406)
08-30-2016 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
08-30-2016 8:17 AM


Re: You are free to have your opinion
Hatred of free speech ? Hardly. You're using hyperbole for effect there Faith.
Freedom of speech is no different from any other right - it is limited, to the extent that it harms someone. And at that point, we do something to try to prevent that harm.
You can say "I'm entitled to my opinion, even if you disagree with it." You're not entitled to act in accordance with your opinion, if so acting brings harm to someone else.
Making that distinction is not hatred of free speech.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 08-30-2016 8:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 08-30-2016 8:40 AM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 11 of 103 (790407)
08-30-2016 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
08-30-2016 8:23 AM


And when it comes to suggestions that gay people should seek services elsewhere, is that not the same as saying that Rosa Parks should have sat elsewhere ?
Why should the person being discriminated against, have to make concessions?

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Faith, posted 08-30-2016 8:23 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 08-30-2016 8:46 AM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 14 of 103 (790412)
08-30-2016 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
08-30-2016 8:40 AM


Re: You are free to have your opinion
I disagree. Any form of discrimination is harmful - it is saying to someone that they are entitled to less than someone else, because of the colour of their skin, or their gender, or their sexuality, or some other feature. It is deeply hurtful, and wrong in one of the most fundamental ways that something can be wrong.
I will agree that telling Christians that they will be held liable, if they discriminate in accordance with their faith, can be seen as imposing harm on Christians, in that they see themselves as being required to act against their conscience. However, what happens then is that we balance the harm to the person being discriminated against, with the harm to the Christian of acting against their conscience. I very firmly believe that the balance comes down hugely in favour of the gay couples whose sexuality is being discriminated against, rather than the Christians, who believe that someone else's un-chosen sexuality is a sin and an affront to their own opinions.
At its most basic level, you don't get a free pass to discriminate against someone, just because you believe that God said they're sinners.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 08-30-2016 8:40 AM Faith has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 16 of 103 (790414)
08-30-2016 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
08-30-2016 8:46 AM


Gays are not a race, they aren't really even a legitimate class at all that deserves any concession from society.
Really ? So if a company decided to sack all gay employees, because they're gay, those people should not be entitled to protection, based on anti-discrimination laws ?
Edited by vimesey, : No reason given.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 08-30-2016 8:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 08-30-2016 9:03 AM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 19 of 103 (790425)
08-30-2016 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
08-30-2016 9:03 AM


I wasn't clear enough with my example.
Let's assume a company legitimately identifies it needs to cut its workforce by 10%, for redundancy reasons. Let's assume that 10% of the workforce self-identity as gay.
The company can legitimately sack 10% of its employees. Is it allowed to choose just the gay ones ?

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 08-30-2016 9:03 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by 1.61803, posted 08-30-2016 10:03 AM vimesey has not replied

  
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