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Author Topic:   Glenn Morton's Evidence Examined
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 226 of 427 (791303)
09-14-2016 10:25 AM


Hot Times in the old chain
There is another local hot spot chain that is of interest since like the Hawaii/Emperor Chain it is far from extinct and that is the Snake River/Yellowstone Chain, a continental chain that stretches from Oregon to Yellowstone itself and is a series of caldera forming super eruptions that began over 16 million years ago with the most recent eruption only a little over 174 thousand years ago and last super eruption about 640 thousand years ago.
One of the really useful things about these eruptions is that the Tuff produced by each event has distinct physical and chemical characteristics which allows direct dating of different layers of Tuff found as far away as Kansas to specific known events.

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Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 227 of 427 (791304)
09-14-2016 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Taq
09-13-2016 4:23 PM


The problem is that this is not what we see in the geologic column. Instead, we see hundreds of feet made up of animal and plant remains that could not have all been alive at the same time.
According to OE interpretation, not according to fact. You guys all have a bad habit of treating theory or interpretation as fact. It isn't.

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Faith 
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Posts: 35298
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Message 228 of 427 (791305)
09-14-2016 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by edge
09-13-2016 5:29 PM


And where is this represented in the geological record?
Geology recognizes the "Supercontinent" Pangaea.
I presume you have evidence that humans were present on that landscape?
Sure, The Biblical account itself.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
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Message 229 of 427 (791306)
09-14-2016 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Coyote
09-13-2016 5:29 PM


The last time there was a single continent was about 175 million years ago.
Modern humans came along about 174.8 million years later.
Sorry, that's interpretation, not fact.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 230 of 427 (791307)
09-14-2016 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by NoNukes
09-14-2016 12:16 AM


Re: The utter nonsense of uninhabitable landscapes in ROCKS:
You challenged my statement that footprints in rock was evidence that had only on interpretation. Do you want to back off of that position?
Sorry, no comprendo.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Message 231 of 427 (791308)
09-14-2016 10:50 AM


Moderator On Duty
I have read the entire thread and will be moderating. There's a lot I could comment on, but I'll keep this very short:
Edited by Admin, : Grammar.

--Percy
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 232 of 427 (791311)
09-14-2016 11:05 AM


Continuing with OEC arguments: Flood was not Global
Here's another one from Glenn Morton:
He claims the Flood wasn't Global. There is one very brief answer to this that ought to satisfy someone who claims he's still a Christian: There would have been no need whatever for Noah to build an ark to carry all animals if the Flood were not global. It took him a hundred years to build it, enough time to have escaped to any area that would have been spared the Flood. I don't think there's anything else to say on this subject.

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by NoNukes, posted 09-14-2016 11:36 AM Faith has replied
 Message 247 by kbertsche, posted 09-14-2016 1:19 PM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 233 of 427 (791312)
09-14-2016 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Faith
09-14-2016 10:49 AM


Re: The utter nonsense of uninhabitable landscapes in ROCKS:
NoNukes writes:
You challenged my statement that footprints in rock was evidence that had only on interpretation. Do you want to back off of that position?
Faith writes:
Sorry, no comprendo.
Yep, that old canard. Again. Here is a refresher showing the previous discussion.
NoNukes writes:
Again, if all you have is tracks, and there are multiple stories that can be woven, then what you have is not evidence until you can distinguish between the stories. Tracks are easily explained by animals living in an area at any time.
Faith writes:
Except in the case of tracks found on the surface of rocks in the strata
So yeah, you did claim that tracks found in the surface of rocks in the strata was only explained by the Flood. Either that or your post was a complete non-sequitur and nonsense.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 10:49 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 11:37 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 234 of 427 (791314)
09-14-2016 11:33 AM


Continuing with OEC Arguments: Fossil sorting
I've already brought up the ammonites, which are one of the examples on the same page linked in the previous post
Go to "3" on the page.
Morton covers a number of examples of different varieties of the same fossil species being found in different layers of the strata, which he uses as evidence against the Flood. The idea is that it's impossible to imagine that such a Flood could have sorted creatures so precisely according to principles that have nothing to do with the YEC attempts to explain it according to hydrodynamic principles: size or shape or any feature that could be attributed to water as the cause. (abe: This is really an Argument from Incredulity, isn't it? Something YECs are often criticized for. /abe )
This observation does at least disprove the hydrodynamic explanation for most of the sorting of the fossils, but all that means is that another explanation is needed. "Birds of a feather flock together" or in other words different original locations of the different fossil groups, seems to me to be the best explanation.
But I'm not arguing for that explanation particularly. My argument is the same for all these examples, the same one I used for the ammonites and the trilobites (I don't find the trilobites mentioned on this page of Morton's but I try not to stay too long on a white page because of my eyes so I may have missed it): finding closely related creatures in different layers of the strata means according to conventional dating methods that there are millions of years between their appearance on the earth, which contradicts the normal rate of change in a species. This has been questioned on this thread but on no defensible basis. To develop a breed of cattle takes only a few hundred years, a dog breed even less, the Pod Mrcaru lizards less than thirty years. All that is required is the isolation of some individuals out of any species for a short period of time which must happen all the time in Nature. Even if you give it thousands of years you are nowhere near the millions required by the conventional dating of the strata.
abe: I believe the genetic material for microevolution is built into the Species, that change is inevitable unless we're talking about a creature so genetically depleted they are almost clones of each other. /abe
But if your idea of how the changes arise happens to be mutation, then you would have to explain how so few mutations occurred in millions of years. If you acknowledge that mutations are often deleterious or lethal, you should also consider how the "evolved" creature in the higher level even survived that long.
This is a killer for the Geological Timescale it seems to me, but I don't expect anyone to be honest about that.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by NoNukes, posted 09-14-2016 11:39 AM Faith has replied
 Message 244 by PaulK, posted 09-14-2016 11:54 AM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 235 of 427 (791315)
09-14-2016 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by Faith
09-14-2016 11:05 AM


Re: Continuing with OEC arguments: Flood was not Global
He claims the Flood wasn't Global. There is one very brief answer to this that ought to satisfy someone who claims he's still a Christian:
Faith. John 3:16. Please.
It is not a pre-requisite that one take the ark story literally in order to be a Christian. All that is necessary to is to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and to repent from your sins. Period. I am quite surprised how folks who professes to be a Christian say otherwise so often. Please remind me not to take you along on an out reach trip.
There would have been no need whatever for Noah to build an ark to carry all animals if the Flood were not global. It took him a hundred years to build it, enough time to have escaped to any area that would have been spared the Flood.
You make a number of other huge assumptions about what Morton had to believe.
1) All that would have been necessary was for the known world to be flooded to prevent Noah's escape. Global flood not required. There would have been no reason, for example to Flood North and South America.
2) You are challenging a non literal interpretation of the Bible by insisting on a literal translation of the Bible. Morton may not have accepted nearly as much as you are insisting on. No global flood means no need to even spend 100 years making a boat. Smaller flood, smaller boat, fewer animals.
I don't think there's anything else to say on this subject.
Sigh.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 11:05 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 11:43 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 236 of 427 (791316)
09-14-2016 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by NoNukes
09-14-2016 11:05 AM


Re: The utter nonsense of uninhabitable landscapes in ROCKS:
o yeah, you did claim that tracks found in the surface of rocks in the strata was only explained by the Flood. Either that or your post was a complete non-sequitur and nonsense.
You said only "rocks" before, not "rocks in the strata." Sorry if I can't remember all your strange comments in their proper context.
So yes on the surface of the rocks in the strata the tracks would have had to occur during the Flood.
So?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 237 of 427 (791317)
09-14-2016 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by Faith
09-14-2016 11:33 AM


Re: Continuing with OEC Arguments: Fossil sorting
This observation does at least disprove the hydrodynamic explanation for most of the sorting of the fossils, but all that means is that another explanation is needed. "Birds of a feather flock together" or in other words different locations of the different fossil groups, seems to me to be the best explanation.
As you are doubtless aware, even that your "another explanation", which is not even new, is not enough. There is no explanation. Instead there is only your hope that an explanation will be found.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 11:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 11:44 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 238 of 427 (791318)
09-14-2016 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by NoNukes
09-14-2016 11:36 AM


Re: Continuing with OEC arguments: Flood was not Global
Dang it, NN, I'm not saying he isn't a Christian, I'm saying that DUE TO HIS CHRISTIAN belief he should recognize that the Flood HAD TO BE GLOBAL for the reasons I gave. Yes my syatement could have been clearer, sorry about that. But you seem to go out of your way to find the most reprehensible reading of anything I say.
I don't think you could flood part of the world to a depth of fifteen cubits without flooding the rest of the world. What are you thinking?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by NoNukes, posted 09-14-2016 11:36 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by NoNukes, posted 09-14-2016 2:50 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 239 of 427 (791319)
09-14-2016 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Faith
09-14-2016 11:37 AM


Re: The utter nonsense of uninhabitable landscapes in ROCKS:
Sorry if I can't remember all your strange comments in their proper context.
A discussion requires remembering what was said in at least the last exchange. But beyond that, post from yesterday are always available to read today.
So yes on the surface of the rocks in the strata the tracks would have had to occur during the Flood.
I just provided an alternative to your explanation, so no, rocks on the surface do not have to occur because of a flood, regardless of whether they do or do not contain footprints.
If you have some rationale beyond simply asserting such, perhaps this is the time to post it.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 11:37 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 242 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 11:47 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 240 of 427 (791320)
09-14-2016 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by NoNukes
09-14-2016 11:39 AM


Re: Continuing with OEC Arguments: Fossil sorting
How about addressing the actual argument?

This message is a reply to:
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