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Author Topic:   The 2016 United States Presidential Election
nwr
Member
Posts: 6440
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 44 of 892 (792679)
10-12-2016 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
10-12-2016 10:43 AM


Re: International reactions?
Is there a clear statement of what constitutes High Crimes and Misdemeanors?
Perhaps not. But using the office of the presidency to conduct a personal vendetta against one's political opponent surely fits.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6440
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 45 of 892 (792680)
10-12-2016 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Diomedes
10-12-2016 4:14 PM


Re: Recent Polls and Election Predictions
The problem is, this excessive rhetoric reached a fever pitch during the Obama administration. I think maybe actually seeing a black man in the Oval Office just put some Republicans over the edge.
It may reach an even higher pitch during a Clinton administration, with a women in the oval office.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6440
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 54 of 892 (792703)
10-13-2016 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by RAZD
10-13-2016 8:49 AM


Re: International reactions?
You mean like invading Iraq on a pretext because Saddam threatened daddy bush?
Not quite the same thing as Trump's threat to Clinton.
However, I was opposed to that Iraq invasion from the time that Bush first hinted at it (in a December 2001 speech).

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6440
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 72 of 892 (792935)
10-16-2016 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by anglagard
10-15-2016 6:14 PM


Re: The Clinton Machine
Bernie was sabotaged by the DNC -- period.
I don't see it.
If the DNC had bent over backward to help Bernie, he still would have lost the primaries. He did not lose because of sabotage. He lost because he did not have enough voters supporting him.
I don't know if you have realized, but the electorate is angry and properly so, they know they are being screwed but some do not know how to solve the problem.
How to solve the "problem" is simple. They have to show up and vote.
It isn't good enough to vote in presidential elections, but then skip voting for the midterm elections. That's what they are doing wrong.
Also, they have to work at the grass roots to build coalitions. It isn't sufficient for them to have a tantrum when your favorite candidate loses a primary. They have to be out there drumming up support for their ideas long before they even have a favorite candidate. Sitting home watching TV, or sending out tweets, or doing "likes" on facebook won't do it.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6440
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 77 of 892 (792944)
10-16-2016 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by RAZD
10-16-2016 8:59 AM


Re: really?
You need to do something about that persecution complex

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6440
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 95 of 892 (793054)
10-19-2016 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by jar
10-19-2016 9:29 AM


Re: Rigged
But in other states you can only vote in the primary of your registered party, Republicans cannot vote in the Democratic Primary and independents can't vote in any primary.
Illinois doesn't quite fit your descriptions.
It is usually described as an open primary state. So you can show up to vote for the primary, and request either the Republican ballot or the Democratic ballot. But you cannot mix and match. Either you only vote for Republicans (if you use the Republican ballot) or you only vote for Democrats (if you use that ballot).
Oh, whichever ballot you use, you are then considered to be a member of that party until the next primary.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6440
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 129 of 892 (793148)
10-22-2016 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by marc9000
10-21-2016 12:25 PM


Now that the 3 presidential debates are done, what are the opinions here about the debate moderation?
My initial reaction to Chris Wallace, was that the wording of the questions showed a slight right-wing bias. But I don't think that affected the debate. And he did a pretty good job otherwise.
I didn't notice any obvious bias in the others.
In all honesty, it is hard to compare. The debates were of a different style, and they were influenced by what else was happening in the news cycle.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6440
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 136 of 892 (793184)
10-23-2016 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by xongsmith
10-20-2016 3:11 PM


Re: Gerrymandering solution?
Suppose we have a state with 16 districts, like Ohio.
I see that you are still tying the election to residence. You are just weakening the ties.
Your opponents in this discussion seem to be unable to break away from the traditional idea of districts..
I want to be more radical.
I live in a suburb of Chicago. But it is mainly a bedroom community. I know few of my neighbors, and even then I don't often talk to them.
I am, however, far more engaged in:
the community of mathematicians;
the community of computer scientists;
the community of linux users;
the community of bloggers.
By contrast, I have almost no involvement in:
the community of baseball fans;
the community of football fans;
the community of TV entertainment watchers.
There is some value in representation of geographic regions. But the senate already takes care of that. Most regional concerns are with matters handled by state and municipal government. For the federal government, we should be looking for something different.
I think it could be great if I could vote for a representative of, say, the community of mathematicians. The Internet has allowed us to create important communities that are not geographically based. Why not have house elections handled in accordance with those new non-geographic communities. Perhaps allow people to "enroll" in a community of their choice.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6440
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 251 of 892 (793674)
11-03-2016 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by xongsmith
11-02-2016 12:56 PM


Re: because ... hacking
...and get a receipt of your own ballot (like a carbon copy) with your same ballot's long serial number you take home. Ballots are serial-numbered randomly. Later you can look up on the website and see how they counted the ballot with your serial number, which no one but you, yourself, knows.
And then you show that to the guy who offered to pay you $100 for your vote. And he hands over the cash.
Isn't this sort of vote buying what we are trying to avoid?

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6440
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


(9)
Message 300 of 892 (793987)
11-07-2016 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by dronestar
11-07-2016 10:10 AM


Re: The Clinton Machine
Do you think the viewpoints of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi mothers, who lost many of their children due to Hillary’s enthusiastic support of Bush Jr.s immoral and illegal Iraq invasion, would also consider Hillary to be a credible potential President?
This is bullshit.
Yes, Hillary was wrong to support the war. And she was far too slow to admit her mistake.
However, Bush's military venture did not depend on her vote. If she had voted the other way, we would still have had the war.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by dronestar, posted 11-07-2016 10:10 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by dronestar, posted 11-08-2016 9:08 AM nwr has replied
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6440
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


(8)
Message 302 of 892 (794005)
11-08-2016 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by dronestar
11-08-2016 9:08 AM


Re: The Clinton Machine
I noted you (and Admin Asgara, Jar, Kjsimmons, Minnemousus, Tanapteryx, Vimesay, and of course "no-reply-Theo") didn’t answer my simple question (above).
We don't answer your question because it is a bullshit question.
Nobody lost their lives because of "Hillary's enthusiastic support".
However, it may well be true that dronestar has lost all credibility at evcforum.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6440
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 333 of 892 (794049)
11-09-2016 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by dronestar
11-08-2016 3:38 PM


Re: The Clinton Machine
Well, let's see if I got the steps of your mature counter-argument correct:
No, you haven't.
Your argument, basically, is:
X caused Y.
Y is bad (perhaps even evil).
Therefore X is evil.
But the evidence that you present is all about Y being bad. You have not provided one scintilla of evidence that X caused Y.
Yes, we get it that you have an irrational hatred of Clinton. But don't pretend that your anger is an argument. It isn't.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6440
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 351 of 892 (794070)
11-09-2016 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by dronestar
11-09-2016 9:59 AM


Re: The Clinton Machine
For the third time . . .
Message 256, Message 76, and Message 257
There's no evidence there to support your claim.
Sure, they give reason why you hate Hillary. And they are reasons why I am unenthusiatic about her. But still zero evidence to support your claims.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by dronestar, posted 11-09-2016 2:55 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6440
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 366 of 892 (794094)
11-09-2016 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by dronestar
11-09-2016 2:55 PM


Re: The Clinton Machine
As Mod seemed to accept my claim, Message 140 and Message 170, I suspect you either: never read my posts in full, are being willfully obtuse, or simply being dishonest.
No, he clearly does not accept your claims.
He agree with you on the moral argument. But he disagrees on the legal argument (you mentioned war crimes, which is a legal position).
I voted for Obama and against Hillary in 2008, because of her position on the war. But I never thought her a war criminal.
Modulous seems to not understand the difference. In 2008, Clinton was still defending her position on the war. In 2016, she has admitted that she was wrong. That's an important difference.
Still, I agree that she is a flawed candidate. But so were her primary opponents. And the primary voters preferred Clinton. By the way, I voted for Sanders in the primary.
You still have not provided any evidence that she was a war criminal. And you still have not provided any evidence that she is responsible for any civilian death in Iraq.
And no, I am not being dishonest. You are making strong claims for which you provide no evidence at all.
I'm not arguing that you should like Clinton. I'm not a fan myself. I'm just pointing out that you have been making strong claims with no supporting evidence. Believe what you want, but don't demand that other people share your opinions.
IF a foreign politician voted to murder your children and parents based on lies, a crime of aggression, would YOU think that person would make a credible potential president?
There's a congressional record. Can you quote from the congression record exactly when she voted to murder the children and parents of anybody, and with the exact wording on which she voted?

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6440
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 368 of 892 (794096)
11-09-2016 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by RAZD
11-08-2016 6:29 PM


Re: The Clinton Machine
So her vote was wasted.
There are many votes that don't actually effect anything. Perhaps most votes are of that kind. Does it follow that they are all wasted?
What it shows is her mind-set, her readiness to "solve" problems with war instead of political negotiations.
She was the elected representative of the people of New York. The problem she was solving, was to represent her constituents. It was not a vote on war vs. negotiations.
The question of war vs. negotiations was a question that the president had to answer. That was not a question on which Clinton had any input. Her vote was on whether or not to support the president's decision.
If your candidate consistently makes an initial (bad) choice counter to social progress, then they are being dragged to the correct path, not leading.
She was representing her constituents. Did her vote represent the view of her constituents at that time, or did not not? I happen to think that it did represent the view of her constituents.
If I had been making that vote, I would have decided that this was a time to represent what I considered the best interest of the constituents, rather than their view. But that's always a difficult decision for a politician to make.
Clinton might possibly have believed that Bush would use political negotiations, and not go to war except as a last resort. If it were me, then by that time it seemed clear to me that Bush had already made the decision and was just trying to make it sound more palatable. I was more cynical about Bush than Clinton was.
I think you make too much of this vote.
I was against Clinton in 2008, but not because of her vote. I was against her, because she was still defending that vote when should have been obvious by then that her vote was a mistake.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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