Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 51 (9179 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: Jorge Parker
Post Volume: Total: 918,179 Year: 5,436/9,624 Month: 461/323 Week: 101/204 Day: 1/16 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The 2016 United States Presidential Election
vimesey
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 82 of 892 (792956)
10-17-2016 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by frako
10-17-2016 6:54 AM


Hi Frako - this may only be the Wiki page on this guy's activities, but there's enough there to think he might not be the best comedy candidate to choose.
Greater Wynnewood Exotic Animal Park - Wikipedia

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by frako, posted 10-17-2016 6:54 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by frako, posted 10-17-2016 10:50 AM vimesey has not replied

  
vimesey
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(3)
Message 159 of 892 (793223)
10-24-2016 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Percy
10-24-2016 10:40 AM


Re: What a friend said he liked about Trump
There is nothing to like about nuclear war, and sometimes I wonder if Trump supporters understand that.
Year on year, decade after decade, our societies have pandered more and more to the lowest common denominator. Aspiration for education, a better life for you and your children, a more fulfilling existence has been replaced with the simple sell of the quick buck and the easy gratification of our simplest desires. Because that's where the greatest and easiest corporate profit lies.
And now we reap what we sow. The lowest common denominator has been led to believe that simplicity and stupidity is a path to happiness - and they are beating that path in a terrifying manner.
If you do manage to defeat Trump this time out, and I dearly hope you do, the first order of business is to work out how to reach out to his support base, and bring at least some of them back to a sane place. At some point, having ignored them, we will end up in a world of hurt.
Off-topic, but this is how I see the Brexit result coming to pass. I really hope you can avoid our mistake.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Percy, posted 10-24-2016 10:40 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
vimesey
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 308 of 892 (794017)
11-08-2016 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by RAZD
11-08-2016 6:29 PM


Re: The Clinton Machine
Curiously, I want a leader that makes the right initial choices.
Well, you'll have no worries on that score with Trump.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by RAZD, posted 11-08-2016 6:29 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Phat, posted 11-09-2016 12:26 AM vimesey has not replied
 Message 315 by RAZD, posted 11-09-2016 2:48 AM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 316 of 892 (794027)
11-09-2016 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by RAZD
11-09-2016 2:48 AM


Re: The Clinton Machine
It was more a comment that even in a tight fought binary choice between Clinton and the worst arse wipe that could possibly be chosen, we were still hearing a steady stream of negativity from the progressive left towards Clinton. I don't know if this swayed the result, from the detailed voting data - but I suspect it had an impact.
She wasn't perfect, by any means (cue another condescending list of statements and photos from dronestar , coupled with an accusation that I am understating the position and not as left wing as him and therefore a monster), but she was the only alternative you had. However heartfelt, genuine and accurate statements were, in the lead-up to the election, that eg she makes bad choices and would therefore be a bad leader, the only impact they could possibly have had at that time was to benefit Trump.
The time to have had that debate would have been after a Clinton win, in the better of two bad scenarios, wouldn't it ?

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by RAZD, posted 11-09-2016 2:48 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by RAZD, posted 11-09-2016 4:30 AM vimesey has replied
 Message 344 by dronestar, posted 11-09-2016 10:59 AM vimesey has not replied

  
vimesey
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(2)
Message 324 of 892 (794035)
11-09-2016 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by RAZD
11-09-2016 4:30 AM


Re: The Clinton Failure
That I agree with (although I would add that after Bernie lost the primary (however unfairly), then the Clinton negativity could usefully have been suspended more than it was from those who disagreed with the primary outcome, but there you go).
I echo what I hear from you, which is that something now has to be done to level the playing field back again. In the UK too, we're hearing increasingly strident right wing extremism from certain quarters, claiming to speak for "the people". Suggestions that our institutions need tearing down, or democratic protections (such as the independence of the judiciary) need removing.
This is so dangerous, it makes me feel sick - but any voices raised against this right wing rhetoric are shouted down as politically correct, or left wing press, and that received "wisdom" is lapped up by large numbers of people.
We need to speak to the large parts of our countries who are listening to this right wing rhetoric, and listen to them. Understand them. Speak with them. But most of all, listen. Because as you rightly say, if we don't offer them an alternative path to a better future, they'll believe that the better future lies in the nationalistic, xenophobic, neanderthal vision of the Farages/Trumps/Putins. There has to be a counterbalance, which is realistic and attractive.
There's a quotation at the entrance to the visitors' centre at the holocaust memorial in Berlin. I forget the exact words, and will try to look them up. But it's along the lines "We know it can happen again, because we know it's already happened."

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by RAZD, posted 11-09-2016 4:30 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by vimesey, posted 11-09-2016 7:05 AM vimesey has not replied
 Message 349 by dronestar, posted 11-09-2016 11:20 AM vimesey has not replied

  
vimesey
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(2)
Message 327 of 892 (794043)
11-09-2016 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by vimesey
11-09-2016 5:00 AM


Re: The Clinton Failure
I just found the quotation. It's by Primo Levi, an Auschwitz survivor: "It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere."
Much more elegant than my poor recollection.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by vimesey, posted 11-09-2016 5:00 AM vimesey has not replied

  
vimesey
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 743 of 892 (795377)
12-12-2016 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 742 by Modulous
12-12-2016 8:07 AM


Re: The Clintons are good people
That's going to end well, right?
Probably depends upon how much pressure Trump's fellow business men and women (not that he'd listen to the latter) can bring to bear if China tells its oligarchs to invest elsewhere.
The Wall St Journal reported on 12 April that Chinese firms were expected to invest $20-30 billion in the US in 2016 - which is not an enormous percentage of the economy, but important to a number of very influential business people.
And yes, the trade deficit means that it's important for China to keep selling stuff to the US (those free burger toys won't be quite as free if the US has to start manufacturing them) - but the influential business people don't want that boat rocked too much - they won't be able to afford quite so many racehorses/jets/yachts and won't be able to keep up with the Abramovic's - and they just couldn't beaaaaaar that ;-)
I'm not convinced yet that big money can stop the idiot actually kicking off a war - but I suspect they're one of our best hopes of reining him in.
Edited by vimesey, : Autocorrect typo

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 742 by Modulous, posted 12-12-2016 8:07 AM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
vimesey
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 824 of 892 (796981)
01-09-2017 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 822 by Riggamortis
01-08-2017 11:52 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
In my view, it is far too big a political risk to lie about something that unequivocal at this stage. As NoNukes has said, they have to present classified evidence to members of the Houses, and for them to lie would be a blatant piece of political suicide. Can't see them being that stupid. They have to have something pretty solid, in order to be that unequivocal in public.
(Just to clarify - I don't think the CIA are incapable of lying (hell, it's an essential skill in that line of work) - I just don't think they'd lie stupidly.)
Edited by vimesey, : Clarification

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 822 by Riggamortis, posted 01-08-2017 11:52 PM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 825 by jar, posted 01-09-2017 6:43 AM vimesey has not replied
 Message 827 by Riggamortis, posted 01-09-2017 8:47 AM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 828 of 892 (796987)
01-09-2017 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 827 by Riggamortis
01-09-2017 8:47 AM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
But as jar has pointed out, it was the politicians who ran out the argument that WMD's existed. The intelligence agencies themselves were very quiet.
In this case, the CIA itself is publicly stating that Russia sought to influence the elections. That is an extremely big claim, with almost no upside for them, and huge downsides. If they are simply lying, then my point is that it is a far more stupid lie to go public with, than I would give them discredit for.
As a result, on balance, I don't think they're lying. Wrong, maybe - duped, possibly - but not stupid enough to be lying.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 827 by Riggamortis, posted 01-09-2017 8:47 AM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 829 by Faith, posted 01-09-2017 6:48 PM vimesey has not replied
 Message 830 by Riggamortis, posted 01-09-2017 8:37 PM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 839 of 892 (797032)
01-10-2017 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 830 by Riggamortis
01-09-2017 8:37 PM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
Again, I don't really have an opinion one way or the other I'm just very sceptical.
Skepticism is healthy, where it refers to a process of questioning received wisdom and not accepting it without question.
When skepticism becomes cynicism, then I have greater concerns. I have recently heard someone say "I don't believe a word any so-called expert says" (ironically, a few days before they were due to go into hospital for an operation). That person is not someone whose opinion I value.
My own experience of experts is that I have never had one lie to me that I am aware of; in broad terms, they get paid well to look after my interests in ways I don't properly understand; they are well trained in their field; and always willing to try to explain things to me.
I think healthy skepticism is indeed to question expert opinion - but not to believe it to be false at the very outset, without good evidence, directly connected to the opinion (or at least to a well established pattern of behaviour).
For me, any complicity the CIA may have had in the Bush administration's lies as to WMDs, is not sufficient evidence for me to dismiss their assessment as to Russian involvement in the election.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 830 by Riggamortis, posted 01-09-2017 8:37 PM Riggamortis has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 840 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2017 6:38 AM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 841 of 892 (797034)
01-10-2017 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 840 by PaulK
01-10-2017 6:38 AM


Re: Evidence of Russia hacking
I have no idea who Crowdstrike are or aren't. I would need to find out more about them.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 840 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2017 6:38 AM PaulK has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024