Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8915 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 07-17-2019 9:26 AM
31 online now:
caffeine, dwise1, edge, JonF, Percy (Admin), Stile, Theodoric (7 members, 24 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Happy Birthday: lopezeast0211
Post Volume:
Total: 856,854 Year: 11,890/19,786 Month: 1,671/2,641 Week: 180/708 Day: 7/40 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
200201
202
203204205Next
Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6692
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 3016 of 3062 (857375)
07-08-2019 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 3014 by Sarah Bellum
07-07-2019 11:04 PM


Re: Can't keep that trap shut.
I was thinking of the ante-bellum South that counted "all other persons" and jacked up their representation, despite the fact that those "persons" weren't allowed to vote.

Uh, I don't think you understand what most people object to when discussing the 3/5 compromise. It isn't that people were counted for representation who weren't allowed to vote. It's that African slaves were counted for representation but were property in every other situation.

In fact, by the time the Constitution was written, only a couple of states had universal (male) sufferage. Most states had property qualifications for voting and so had lots of people who were counted for representation but weren't allowed to vote.

Representation in Congress has never been about counting voters, ever, in any state.

Added by edit:

Although, come to think of it, it would be interesting to see the reaction of certain red states, the ones engaged in voter suppression tactics, to the proposal to base representation on numbers of voters!

Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.


It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn’t know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3014 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-07-2019 11:04 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3018 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-08-2019 9:15 AM Chiroptera has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 224
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 3017 of 3062 (857376)
07-08-2019 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 3015 by Theodoric
07-07-2019 11:14 PM


Re: Can't keep that trap shut.
You must realize that having a sub-population that cannot vote could be a catalyst for social problems? It's almost as if the US had invaded Mexico and taken Sonora as a colony, restricting the voting rights of the inhabitants there who were descended from immigrants from Spain.

Consider as well the issue of a sub-population disenfranchised because of previous criminal records. Or the issue of "territories" and "possessions"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3015 by Theodoric, posted 07-07-2019 11:14 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3025 by Theodoric, posted 07-08-2019 2:50 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

    
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 224
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 3018 of 3062 (857381)
07-08-2019 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 3016 by Chiroptera
07-08-2019 8:25 AM


Re: Can't keep that trap shut.
The blue states would lose more than the red states, since their population counts include non-voting aliens (both legal and illegal). For example, CA NY and NJ are the top three in percent foreign born. Texas is only number 7.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3016 by Chiroptera, posted 07-08-2019 8:25 AM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3019 by Chiroptera, posted 07-08-2019 9:43 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6692
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 3019 of 3062 (857387)
07-08-2019 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 3018 by Sarah Bellum
07-08-2019 9:15 AM


Re: Can't keep that trap shut.
Well, okay.

But I was mostly commenting on your reducing the issue of the 3/5 compromise as merely one of allowing non-voters to be counted for apportionment. It really is an odd way of looking at it, and as you can see it obscures the point you're trying to make (neither Theodoric nor I understand what your point actually is), and as you can see we've gone off topic and We've been distracted from your point.

It's up to you to decide how to proceed, but I'd suggest moving on from trying to draw an analogy from the antebellum South and just try to make your point as clearly as you can.


It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn’t know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3018 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-08-2019 9:15 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3020 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-08-2019 10:16 AM Chiroptera has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 224
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 3020 of 3062 (857389)
07-08-2019 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 3019 by Chiroptera
07-08-2019 9:43 AM


Re: Can't keep that trap shut.
It is, admittedly, not a perfect analogy.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3019 by Chiroptera, posted 07-08-2019 9:43 AM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3021 by Chiroptera, posted 07-08-2019 11:20 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6692
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 3021 of 3062 (857405)
07-08-2019 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 3020 by Sarah Bellum
07-08-2019 10:16 AM


Representation of immigrants
I am interested in your original point, though.

You brought up that immigrants tend to be concentrated in particular states which boosts their representation in Congress as compared to those states' proportion of actual voters.

What is your concern with this? What problems do you see with this?

Edited by Chiroptera, : Minor typo.


It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn’t know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3020 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-08-2019 10:16 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3022 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-08-2019 11:40 AM Chiroptera has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 224
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 3022 of 3062 (857410)
07-08-2019 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 3021 by Chiroptera
07-08-2019 11:20 AM


Re: Representation of immigrants
It makes for some weird imbalances.

From 2018:

quote:
Tijuana native Alma Martinez will cast her first-ever vote for a Mexican president this July, but from across the country's northern border, where she is among hundreds of thousands of co-nationals whose participation could be decisive in a close race.

Seven times as many Mexicans in the United States have received voting credentials under new rules that let citizens sign up at local consulates rather than in Mexico, compared with the last presidential election six years ago.
...
Adrian Felix, a University of California Santa Cruz professor, said he expects more US votes to be cast than in previous elections. But he said the multi-step registration process, plus skepticism, could limit the increase among the estimated 12 million Mexicans living abroad....
https://www.csmonitor.com/...uld-tip-tight-presidential-race


And going the other way:

quote:
Reports are that approximately one million Americans live in Mexico. While it’s hard to verify that number, it’s not hard to imagine that it’s true. Some are working, of course, for U.S., Mexican, or other foreign corporations. You’ll find them in cities like Mexico City, Queretaro, and Monterrey.

And some live in Mexico just part-time…spending winter months in vacation homes where the weather is always warm and the cervezas are always cold.

Many Americans in Mexico, however, have moved there to enjoy their retirement years. They live in Mexico full-time and enjoy better weather, a more relaxed lifestyle, and a host of other benefits—including affordable top-quality health care and a much lower overall cost of living. ...
https://internationalliving.com/countries/mexico/one-million



This message is a reply to:
 Message 3021 by Chiroptera, posted 07-08-2019 11:20 AM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3023 by Chiroptera, posted 07-08-2019 1:49 PM Sarah Bellum has responded
 Message 3024 by dwise1, posted 07-08-2019 2:34 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6692
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 3023 of 3062 (857443)
07-08-2019 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 3022 by Sarah Bellum
07-08-2019 11:40 AM


Re: Representation of immigrants
Citizens of a country are allowed to vote in their country's elections even when they live abroad. That seems so obvious to me I can't imagine what the objections are.

What does this have to do with the issue of the constitutional requirement that the US census must count all persons?

Edited by Chiroptera, : Typo.


It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn’t know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3022 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-08-2019 11:40 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3026 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-08-2019 4:19 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3550
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 3024 of 3062 (857451)
07-08-2019 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 3022 by Sarah Bellum
07-08-2019 11:40 AM


Re: Representation of immigrants
When the family visited Mexico, we encountered a number of US citizens who had retired to Mexico. Though I read something in my Social Security paperwork about a requirement to not live outside the US for more than six months or else you'd lose your payments, so I don't know their situation about that. My mother-in-law kept her Mexican citizenship for decades because they planned to move to Mexico when my father-in-law retired, but those plans were scrapped when the peso took a nose dive in the 90's (before which commercials on the radio would tout it as a good investment because it was so stable) and she finally became a naturalized citizen.

At the border towns we also have many people who live in one country and work or go to school in the other, commuting daily across the border with no problem at all. Until now -- I haven't heard any stories, but I feel certain that they exist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3022 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-08-2019 11:40 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3028 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-08-2019 4:27 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6393
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 3025 of 3062 (857457)
07-08-2019 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 3017 by Sarah Bellum
07-08-2019 9:02 AM


Re: Can't keep that trap shut.
Not sure what you are arguing or what your original point was. Are you suggesting letting non-citizens vote? Are you for counting them for the census or not?
It's almost as if the US had invaded Mexico and taken Sonora as a colony, restricting the voting rights of the inhabitants there who were descended from immigrants from Spain.

Nothing in the current situation would be analogous to theat scenario.

Or the issue of "territories" and "possessions"

As a Boricua , I am very familiar with how the US colonies are treated.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3017 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-08-2019 9:02 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3027 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-08-2019 4:24 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 224
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 3026 of 3062 (857468)
07-08-2019 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 3023 by Chiroptera
07-08-2019 1:49 PM


Re: Representation of immigrants
I quite agree that citizens should be able to vote even if they aren't in their district on voting day.

I didn't say anything about the constitutional requirement that the US census must count all persons.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3023 by Chiroptera, posted 07-08-2019 1:49 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3031 by Chiroptera, posted 07-08-2019 5:48 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

    
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 224
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 3027 of 3062 (857470)
07-08-2019 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 3025 by Theodoric
07-08-2019 2:50 PM


Re: Can't keep that trap shut.
Then you can surely see the problems of the current situation in places like California where some inhabitants are subject to the law but do not have the privilege of choosing the lawmakers and may, in fact, owe allegiance to a neighboring nation.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3025 by Theodoric, posted 07-08-2019 2:50 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3029 by AZPaul3, posted 07-08-2019 4:42 PM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply
 Message 3030 by Theodoric, posted 07-08-2019 5:13 PM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply

    
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 224
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 3028 of 3062 (857471)
07-08-2019 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 3024 by dwise1
07-08-2019 2:34 PM


Re: Representation of immigrants
That, of course is the ideal, a border like that between France and Germany or between Spain and Portugal. Perhaps someday the entire North American continent can be united as a single polity.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3024 by dwise1, posted 07-08-2019 2:34 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4258
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 3029 of 3062 (857472)
07-08-2019 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3027 by Sarah Bellum
07-08-2019 4:24 PM


Re: Can't keep that trap shut.
Then you can surely see the problems of the current situation in places like California where some inhabitants are subject to the law but do not have the privilege of choosing the lawmakers and may, in fact, owe allegiance to a neighboring nation.

No. I don't see where resident aliens, legal or otherwise, present any "problems of the current situation" like California.

Why is California a problem? What problems?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3027 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-08-2019 4:24 PM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6393
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 3030 of 3062 (857475)
07-08-2019 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 3027 by Sarah Bellum
07-08-2019 4:24 PM


Re: Can't keep that trap shut.
I still have no idea what you are trying to say. Can you just tell us what you are saying is a problem?
Your comments are getting even more incoherent. Of course there will be people that live in a place where they can not vote. WTF does that have to do with your census comments?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3027 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-08-2019 4:24 PM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply

    
RewPrev1
...
200201
202
203204205Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019