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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6056
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 4216 of 4247 (880207)
07-30-2020 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 4215 by PaulK
07-30-2020 1:18 PM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
I’m using my phone to respond so please bear with me by not using direct quotes.

Qualify what a “peaceful protester” is during the middle of an actual riot. If you’re there caught up in the melee then it’s your own damn fault.

Even if half of the complaints were justifiable what you’re failing to see is that there is no right answer that’s going to make people suddenly stop asking for greater and greater demands. Nothing is ever enough.... that’s the problem. Maybe not for you, maybe your demands are quite reasonable and I hope that they are. But as I said the overwhelming majority of remaining protesters are agitators who don’t want an answer, don’t even know what it looks like in practical terms, and is basically seizing upon the opportunity.

This very Saturday multiple left wing extremist groups have vowed to bus in to different cities with the sole intention of causing riots and sowing discord.

That you whitewash all the shitty behavior gives away your motives and your rationale. Thanks for illustrating the most aberrant side of leftwing demagoguery.

And what does radical leftwing ideology promote? Reactionary and Radical right wing ideology. We can’t go down this path to destruction. Qui Bono from this division?


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4215 by PaulK, posted 07-30-2020 1:18 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4217 by PaulK, posted 07-31-2020 12:23 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16471
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 4217 of 4247 (880215)
07-31-2020 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 4216 by Hyroglyphx
07-30-2020 7:44 PM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
quote:
Qualify what a “peaceful protester” is during the middle of an actual riot. If you’re there caught up in the melee then it’s your own damn faul

Who says that the use of tear gas is restricted to ‘actual riots”? We know that the lower grades of tear gas were used on peaceful protestors in Washington when Trump wanted to go out to deliver a speech.

quote:
Even if half of the complaints were justifiable what you’re failing to see is that there is no right answer that’s going to make people suddenly stop asking for greater and greater demands. Nothing is ever enough.... that’s the problem. Maybe not for you, maybe your demands are quite reasonable and I hope that they are. But as I said the overwhelming majority of remaining protesters are agitators who don’t want an answer, don’t even know what it looks like in practical terms, and is basically seizing upon the opportunity.

My demands? How about more efforts to stop the police brutality.

And your opinions of the demonstrators does not remove their right to peacefully demonstrate nor does it justify the intentional targeting of journalists, legal observers or people giving medical aid away from the violence.

quote:
This very Saturday multiple left wing extremist groups have vowed to bus in to different cities with the sole intention of causing riots and sowing discord.

That’s what you say.

quote:
That you whitewash all the shitty behavior gives away your motives and your rationale. Thanks for illustrating the most aberrant side of leftwing demagoguery.

But I don’r do that, do I? What you mean is that I refuse to join you in endorsing police thuggery.

quote:
And what does radical leftwing ideology promote? Reactionary and Radical right wing ideology. We can’t go down this path to destruction. Qui Bono from this division?

And too many police are on that side. Ever think about that?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4216 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-30-2020 7:44 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4220 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2020 9:18 AM PaulK has responded

  
proudly roman catholic
Member
Posts: 1812
Joined: 01-12-2004
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 4218 of 4247 (880217)
07-31-2020 1:54 AM


uyghur. right.

so we have this uyghur population.

muslim.

so they venerate mary and love jesus.

not as we do but similar.

and china genocided them.

and if joe b gets elected, he's going to let china run a lot more of the world.

and the only thing standing between us and china

is the cheeto

god, you better commit some voter fraud for trump

unfortunately the fate of all of humanity hangs in the balance here


Replies to this message:
 Message 4219 by dwise1, posted 07-31-2020 3:42 AM proudly roman catholic has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4212
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 4219 of 4247 (880219)
07-31-2020 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 4218 by proudly roman catholic
07-31-2020 1:54 AM


Wow. Just wow.

When the scales finally fall from your eyes, you will be so mortified that you had ever supported Trump.

god, you better commit some voter fraud for trump

No need to get any god involved. Trump and the anti-American/anti-Constitution GOP and Russia and whatever other foreign actors are doing all they can to commit election fraud.

unfortunately the fate of all of humanity hangs in the balance here

Yes, it does indeed. Very dringend (sorry, but an English translation for that German word escapes me at the moment).

If Trump gets re-elected, then democracy is finished, America is finished, and very likely the world is finished. The fate of all of humanity does indeed hang in the balance.

 
I'm sorry, but you're Catholic, aren't you? You are so lucky that Faith has been suspended indeterminately for her COVID nonsense that endangered lives. She was a fundie of indeterminable theology who was so rabidly anti-Catholic that she'd be in your face all the time. For that matter, whole bodies of "true Christians" believe that Catholics aren't even Christian (eg, Jack Chick of Chick Pubs, which the Jesus Freaks of 1970 gobbled up and left droppings of all over the place -- a lot of my Christian training is from my exposure to the Jesus Freaks).

Tell me, do you Catholics ever get into Revelation? Jeez! The Jesus Freaks were very deeply into the End Times (when they weren't obsessing over demons), so I got exposed to a lot of that stuff. Have you ever heard of The Beast? And the Mark of the Beast that you would wear on your forehead. To be followed by the Anti-Christ.

Now, these End-Times freaks (in the 60's sense, man!) would go through history trying to find any malfeasant who would fit the description of Beast or Anti-Christ (eg, Hitler usually gets high marks). But the irony of it all is that those Jesus Freaks would constantly harangue that in the End Times so many "Christians" would very willingly forsake God and line up to kiss the Beast's ass and accept His Mark upon their forehead.

Well, if ever there were a candidate for The Beast, it would be Donald Trump. And his Mark on your forehead is "MAGA". And, of course, it is God who places him into office, because that is necessary to fulfill Revelation.

And you are personally totally cool with such Satanic machinations (REMEMBER!!!! He held that Bible UPSIDE-DOWN, which is Satanic symbolism).

Wow. Just, wow.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4218 by proudly roman catholic, posted 07-31-2020 1:54 AM proudly roman catholic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4222 by proudly roman catholic, posted 07-31-2020 11:03 AM dwise1 has not yet responded
 Message 4223 by proudly roman catholic, posted 07-31-2020 11:12 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6056
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 4220 of 4247 (880230)
07-31-2020 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 4217 by PaulK
07-31-2020 12:23 AM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
Who says that the use of tear gas is restricted to ‘actual riots”? We know that the lower grades of tear gas were used on peaceful protestors in Washington when Trump wanted to go out to deliver a speech.

I asked if you would qualify what a peaceful protester is during a legitimate riot. You seem to be caught up on tear gas, as if its on par with Mustard Gas of WWI. Every US serviceman is required to be subjected to CS gas as part of bootcamp training. You know why? Because while causing extreme discomfort in the moment, it has no lasting effects. Are you wanting to ban the use of CS?

My demands? How about more efforts to stop the police brutality.

What would that effort look like in practical terms? We've all seen images of police brutality but perhaps what seems objectively reasonable to some may be objectively unreasonable to others. I'll tell you what it looks like per the Austin City Council. They want zero uses of force by the year 2023. Yeah, isn't the use of force kind of dependent on the actions of the other party?

And your opinions of the demonstrators does not remove their right to peacefully demonstrate nor does it justify the intentional targeting of journalists, legal observers or people giving medical aid away from the violence.

Nor am I suggesting that it should. What I am suggesting is that the majority of remaining protesters at this stage are either paid protesters or they are agitators and instigators. Because of Covid there's a whole lot of people out there with no money and nothing better to do. Some of you said it was rightwing propaganda that there was such a thing as "paid protesters." Its real. Its very real and its quite lucrative because their donors usually have deep pockets.

When your strategy demands paid protest, we organize and bring it to life.

Hire Demonstrators for PR Events and More

quote:
This very Saturday multiple left wing extremist groups have vowed to bus in to different cities with the sole intention of causing riots and sowing discord.

That’s what you say.

That's what I know.

Antifa mobilizes agitators for nationwide riots on Saturday

But I don’r do that, do I? What you mean is that I refuse to join you in endorsing police thuggery.

If you think you can do such a better job then go out there and do it.

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” -- Theodore Roosevelt

And too many police are on that side. Ever think about that?

Then stop manufacturing them.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4217 by PaulK, posted 07-31-2020 12:23 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4221 by PaulK, posted 07-31-2020 10:08 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16471
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 4221 of 4247 (880236)
07-31-2020 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 4220 by Hyroglyphx
07-31-2020 9:18 AM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
quote:
I asked if you would qualify what a peaceful protester is during a legitimate riot.

And? I was saying that the police - or federal agents - shouldn’t be attacking obviously peaceful protestors. Please explain how your question fits into that.

quote:
You seem to be caught up on tear gas, as if its on par with Mustard Gas of WWI. Every US serviceman is required to be subjected to CS gas as part of bootcamp training. You know why? Because while causing extreme discomfort in the moment, it has no lasting effects. Are you wanting to ban the use of CS?

What I want is more restraint in it’s use. Which by the reports I’ve seen is obviously needed.

quote:
What would that effort look like in practical terms? We've all seen images of police brutality but perhaps what seems objectively reasonable to some may be objectively unreasonable to others. I'll tell you what it looks like per the Austin City Council. They want zero uses of force by the year 2023. Yeah, isn't the use of force kind of dependent on the actions of the other party?

I can make a few suggestions. Better training, especially in deescalating situations. Less militarisation. More firing of guilty officers, more checks on hires so they can’t just walk into another police job, more willingness of other officers to testify against them.

quote:
Nor am I suggesting that it should.

Well that’s rather odd, since I haven’t seen any sign of you acknowledging wrongdoing on the part of the police up to now.

quote:
What I am suggesting is that the majority of remaining protesters at this stage are either paid protesters or they are agitators and instigators. Because of Covid there's a whole lot of people out there with no money and nothing better to do. Some of you said it was rightwing propaganda that there was such a thing as "paid protesters." Its real. Its very real and its quite lucrative because their donors usually have deep pockets.

Even if that were true - and what I’ve seen makes it unlikely - they still have the right to peacefully protest. Physically attacking them is not the answer.

quote:
quote:
This very Saturday multiple left wing extremist groups have vowed to bus in to different cities with the sole intention of causing riots and sowing discord.

That’s what you say.

That's what I know.

Antifa mobilizes agitators for nationwide riots on Saturday


That’s what the headline says. It’s not what the quoted messages say (one mentions fighting which may be meant literally, but another announces a COVID-mindful picnic). And there’s very little mention of bussing people in. The vast majority just look like people calling for peaceful protests.

The fact that your source is pretty far-right makes it’s editorialising rather suspect, too.

...has been criticized for releasing misinformation and articles written by fake personas,[1] for employing an editor with ties to white supremacist-platforming and pro-Kremlin media outlets,[2] and for opaque funding and political connections

Wikipedia

I wouldn’t claim to know something just because such a source said so.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4220 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2020 9:18 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4224 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2020 11:14 AM PaulK has responded

  
proudly roman catholic
Member
Posts: 1812
Joined: 01-12-2004
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 4222 of 4247 (880245)
07-31-2020 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 4219 by dwise1
07-31-2020 3:42 AM


Your soliloquy is crap, sir.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4219 by dwise1, posted 07-31-2020 3:42 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
proudly roman catholic
Member
Posts: 1812
Joined: 01-12-2004
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 4223 of 4247 (880247)
07-31-2020 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 4219 by dwise1
07-31-2020 3:42 AM


credible view of catholic extrapolation of revelation:

Explaining the Faith - Catholic View of End Times


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4219 by dwise1, posted 07-31-2020 3:42 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6056
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 4224 of 4247 (880249)
07-31-2020 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 4221 by PaulK
07-31-2020 10:08 AM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
And? I was saying that the police - or federal agents - shouldn’t be attacking obviously peaceful protestors. Please explain how your question fits into that.

I suppose we can continue to go in circles where you say police shouldn't attack obvious peaceful protesters (which I obviously agree) but to which I reply what a peaceful protester looks like when the only remaining protesters are there to fuck shit up.... and then the cycle repeats. So lets try this: for non-peaceful protesters using force, is it acceptable for police to use commensurate force to effect an arrest?

What I want is more restraint in it’s use. Which by the reports I’ve seen is obviously needed.

So give me an example of an acceptable use so that there's some kind of metric for when it should be allowed and when it shouldn't.

I can make a few suggestions. Better training, especially in deescalating situations. Less militarisation. More firing of guilty officers, more checks on hires so they can’t just walk into another police job, more willingness of other officers to testify against them.

We are finally in agreement on something. Progress!

Well that’s rather odd, since I haven’t seen any sign of you acknowledging wrongdoing on the part of the police up to now.

Nonsense. I have been critical of police numerous times on this thread and others similar to them, acknowledging failures when they arise. I am simply differentiating between what you may call inappropriate and I say is appropriate. There we would likely disagree on a few line items.

Even if that were true - and what I’ve seen makes it unlikely - they still have the right to peacefully protest. Physically attacking them is not the answer.

If it were true? It is true, despite the leftwing media's attempt to deny it. Its subterfuge, Paul. And your cavalier dismissal of its relevance is actually hilarious.

That’s what the headline says. It’s not what the quoted messages say (one mentions fighting which may be meant literally, but another announces a COVID-mindful picnic). And there’s very little mention of bussing people in. The vast majority just look like people calling for peaceful protests.

LOL, yeah, attack the source not the substance. Typical diversionary tactic. Those are screenshots from Antifa's own social media accounts that you can easily verify right now. ANTIFA provides the Feds and Pigs with the best intel. No sophistication required. Plus their ranks are filled with informants and operatives.

I wouldn’t claim to know something just because such a source said so.

That's literally what you just did!

I think we're done here, Paul. We're going around in circles and your inability to debate with a modicum of honesty and integrity is growing tiresome. Good luck to you and your fantasy world.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4221 by PaulK, posted 07-31-2020 10:08 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4225 by PaulK, posted 07-31-2020 11:32 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16471
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 4225 of 4247 (880252)
07-31-2020 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 4224 by Hyroglyphx
07-31-2020 11:14 AM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
quote:
I suppose we can continue to go in circles where you say police shouldn't attack obvious peaceful protesters (which I obviously agree)

What you wrote didn’t look like agreement, it looked like making up excuses to justify attacking obviously peaceful protestors. This is the first point where you’ve said you agree.

quote:
So lets try this: for non-peaceful protesters using force, is it acceptable for police to use commensurate force to effect an arrest?

Maybe. But that’s going to be difficult in the middle of a riot and even worse if there are innocent people caught up in it.

quote:
So give me an example of an acceptable use so that there's some kind of metric for when it should be allowed and when it shouldn't

Once the police are under sustained attack, or other people,present are being attacked. A few missiles aimed at police shouldn’t be sufficient. And certainly not for clearing peaceful protestors out of Trump’s way.

quote:
Nonsense. I have been critical of police numerous times on this thread and others similar to them, acknowledging failures when they arise. I am simply differentiating between what you make call inappropriate and I say is appropriate. There we would likely disagree on a few line items.

I was, of course, referring to this discussion.

[quote]If it were true? It is true, despite the leftwing media's attempt to deny it. Its subterfuge, Paul. And you cavalier dismissal of its relevance is actually hilarious.

quote:
LOL, yeah, attack the source not the substance

Pointing out that their evidence does not support their claim IS addressing the substance.

quote:
That's literally what you just did!

No, it isn’t. I referred to the supposed evidence provided by your source. Are you going to claim that it all really means something other than what it says? That is MUST be read as supporting the claims of your source ?

quote:
I think we're done here, Paul. We're going around in circles and your inability to debate with a modicum of honesty and integrity is growing tiresome.

Well I guess you had to get out one last hypocritical lie.

quote:
Good luck to you and your fantasy world.

I will not wish you the same, since your fantasies are there to justify violence and repression.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4224 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2020 11:14 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4226 by PaulK, posted 07-31-2020 12:18 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16471
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 4226 of 4247 (880255)
07-31-2020 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 4225 by PaulK
07-31-2020 11:32 AM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
And let’s just add. The protests in Portland last night were peaceful.

Perhaps it was because the demonstrators weren’t attacked by federal agents.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4225 by PaulK, posted 07-31-2020 11:32 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4227 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2020 4:42 PM PaulK has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6056
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 4227 of 4247 (880279)
07-31-2020 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 4226 by PaulK
07-31-2020 12:18 PM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
And let’s just add. The protests in Portland last night were peaceful.

Crazy peaceful.... it was basically a huge love-fest.

Perhaps it was because the demonstrators weren’t attacked by federal agents.

What a stupid argument! That's like saying you didn't get wet because you didn't go in to water. You are, of course, placing the cart before the horse. Why were federal agents even out there to begin with? Might it have something to do with the 50+ days of non-stop violence, looting, and rioting??? You are completely delusional, as if "federal agents" are warring in a vacuum or as if the violence wasn't started by leftist extremists.

You have said a few times that haven't said anything about police misconduct, which I have. I have not once heard you disavow or even accept Antifa's role in this. This is a tacit admission that you condone it, however, you realize that if you were to openly say it it would invalidate your criticisms of the police RESPONDING to the violence.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4226 by PaulK, posted 07-31-2020 12:18 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4228 by PaulK, posted 07-31-2020 4:54 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 4231 by ringo, posted 08-01-2020 9:12 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16471
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 4228 of 4247 (880281)
07-31-2020 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 4227 by Hyroglyphx
07-31-2020 4:42 PM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
quote:
Crazy peaceful.... it was basically a huge love-fest.
So one stabbing, no riot.

quote:
What a stupid argument!

Oh it’s quite sensible. Violence will trigger violence.

quote:
Why were federal agents even out there to begin with?

It really doesn’t matter. There’s no certainty of prediction here. You can’t know what would have happened the previous night if the Feds hadn’t opened up with the tear gas (according to a report I’ve seen the Feds were the ones to open the attack that night).

quote:
You have said a few times that haven't said anything about police misconduct, which I have. I have not once heard you disavow or even accept Antifa's role in this

I’ve been concentrating on those that were wrongfully attacked, while admitting that there were others there. Do you class “Antifa” (a label, not an organisation) among the former or the latter?

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4227 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2020 4:42 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4230 by PaulK, posted 08-01-2020 7:47 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
proudly roman catholic
Member
Posts: 1812
Joined: 01-12-2004
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 4229 of 4247 (880286)
07-31-2020 9:15 PM


we let them get away with the one child policy because let's face it nobody cared about china's women and girls and the forced abortions.

we buy their products.

now we're letting china get away with genociding a minority group.

Mic'd Up Report — Who is Joe Biden?

and if biden gets in, he'll continue to give china anything they want, sell the country wholesale, like when he supported making them a "favored nation", and when bill added china to the WTO.

it's all about a buck for these guys.

trump's too old and he's ripped off enough people in the private sector to care about what china can do for him.

a vote for joe is a vote for the expansion of the CCP and in a way a vote for our time's closest thing to nazi germany.


  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16471
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 4230 of 4247 (880294)
08-01-2020 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 4228 by PaulK
07-31-2020 4:54 PM


It’s not all outside agitators
The Oregonian

Clashes between police and protesters were absent Friday from downtown Portland for the second straight night

Demetria Hester leads a group of self-identified mothers who have become a fixture at the protests. She led a march to the demonstrations Friday and remained there for hours, calling out people whose actions might provoke police.

Speakers at the rally reiterated their grievances over what they consider a disproportionate law-enforcement response to protesters, particularly in recent weeks. “The value of human life matters more than graffiti on a building,” one person said. “Human life matters more than rattling a fence.”

And they have some commitments from local government The Oregonian 28 July

The effort has enough momentum that a special legislative session planned for later this summer that was anticipated to focus solely on balancing the state budget could now include proposals to demilitarize police, eliminate legalized slavery from the state’s constitution and to strengthen the state’s fair housing laws, among other bills.

Never rely on the propaganda from the far-right.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4228 by PaulK, posted 07-31-2020 4:54 PM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4234 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-07-2020 1:24 AM PaulK has responded

  
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