Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8994 total)
77 online now:
PaulK, Pollux, proudly roman catholic, Tangle (4 members, 73 visitors)
Newest Member: Juvenissun
Post Volume: Total: 879,280 Year: 11,028/23,288 Month: 280/1,763 Week: 247/390 Day: 67/69 Hour: 6/3

Announcements: Topic abandonment warning (read and/or suffer the consequences)


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
ringo
Member
Posts: 18511
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 4231 of 4246 (880300)
08-01-2020 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 4227 by Hyroglyphx
07-31-2020 4:42 PM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
Hyroglyphx writes:

Paulk writes:

Perhaps it was because the demonstrators weren’t attacked by federal agents.


What a stupid argument! That's like saying you didn't get wet because you didn't go in to water.

Actually, it's like saying you didn't get wet because the water didn't jump on you.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4227 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2020 4:42 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6326
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 4232 of 4246 (880503)
08-06-2020 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 4191 by PaulK
07-29-2020 12:28 AM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
Hi Paulk,

Paulk writes:

Which means that the inhabitants should be denied their civil rights?

What civil rights are you talking about? No one and I mean no one has any right to destroy or even try to destroy someone else's property. It makes no difference if it is a Federal property, or a local government's property because both belong to the taxpayers that paid for it.

Can you cite me any part of our constitution or laws that give them such a right?

Paulk writes:

And in every state you can’t arrest someone just because you think they might know something.

If an officer approaches you and gives you an order and you do not comply he/she can arrest you. So if they have a suspicion you have done something they can arrest you and hold you for the duration that the particular state's laws allows.

Paulk writes:

. People who aren’t suspects can’t be held.

So how do you determine if the officer has a suspicion or not? If an officer sees someone throw a rock at a crowd he/she can arrest the person and charge them with assault with a deadly weapon.

Paulk writes:

Indeed, so you can contest illegal detention.

How do you determine if it is a legal or illegal detention? Wouldn't that be up to the judge at the booking hearing?

It sure is not the place to do it at the scene of the arrest. Resisting arrest is a crime.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4191 by PaulK, posted 07-29-2020 12:28 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4233 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2020 12:44 AM ICANT has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16471
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 4233 of 4246 (880506)
08-07-2020 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 4232 by ICANT
08-06-2020 11:44 PM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
quote:
What civil rights are you talking about? No one and I mean no one has any right to destroy or even try to destroy someone else's property. It makes no difference if it is a Federal property, or a local government's property because both belong to the taxpayers that paid for it.

For a start the Fourth Amendment right not to be arrested without adequate cause. Simply accusing the victims of crimes without adequate evidence as you are doing is not sufficient. In fact it’s evil.

quote:
If an officer approaches you and gives you an order and you do not comply he/she can arrest you

You may think you live in a police state but you don’t. Police authority is not unlimited. That can’t just give any orders they like and expect to be obeyed.

quote:
So if they have a suspicion you have done something they can arrest you and hold you for the duration that the particular state's laws allows.

Well I’m glad something I said got through, but you still haven’t noticed that in this case they did NOT have adequate grounds for suspicion. Or in fact have any real suspicion.

quote:
So how do you determine if the officer has a suspicion or not? If an officer sees someone throw a rock at a crowd he/she can arrest the person and charge them with assault with a deadly weapon.

In this case, because they said so.

quote:
How do you determine if it is a legal or illegal detention? Wouldn't that be up to the judge at the booking hearing?

There was no booking hearing. Are you suggesting that the police simply need to avoid that to get away with illegal detention? (The way you argue it’s quite possible you do).

quote:
It sure is not the place to do it at the scene of the arrest. Resisting arrest is a crime.

And there’s an example. You can certainly point out that the arrest is illegal right there. That’s not a crime even if some cops would treat it as one. And there are further options later, right up to filing a civil case.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4232 by ICANT, posted 08-06-2020 11:44 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4236 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-07-2020 1:39 AM PaulK has responded
 Message 4241 by ICANT, posted 08-07-2020 11:34 AM PaulK has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6056
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 4234 of 4246 (880510)
08-07-2020 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 4230 by PaulK
08-01-2020 7:47 AM


Re: It’s not all outside agitators
Clashes between police and protesters were absent Friday from downtown Portland for the second straight night

At the time of this posting, other cities were ratcheted up, as ANTIFA commuted to different cities in which is to besiege. As of late, the violent attacks have increased and have not subsided since the Feds moved out

This is indefensible and undermines the cause they claim to be protesting for.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4230 by PaulK, posted 08-01-2020 7:47 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4235 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2020 1:37 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16471
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 4235 of 4246 (880514)
08-07-2020 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 4234 by Hyroglyphx
08-07-2020 1:24 AM


Re: It’s not all outside agitators
quote:
At the time of this posting, other cities were ratcheted up, as ANTIFA commuted to different cities in which is to besiege. As of late, the violent attacks have increased and have not subsided since the Feds moved out

That’s an odd thing to say when the Feds moved to other cities.

However this has nothing to do with my point that there were genuine protestors at Portland all the way through, and your assertions to the contrary were false. So I take your new allegations with a grain of salt.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4234 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-07-2020 1:24 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4237 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-07-2020 1:41 AM PaulK has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6056
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 4236 of 4246 (880515)
08-07-2020 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 4233 by PaulK
08-07-2020 12:44 AM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
For a start the Fourth Amendment right not to be arrested without adequate cause. Simply accusing the victims of crimes without adequate evidence as you are doing is not sufficient. In fact it’s evil.

Do you have anything specific in regards to your statement?

You may think you live in a police state but you don’t. Police authority is not unlimited. That can’t just give any orders they like and expect to be obeyed.

If its a lawful order they can.

There was no booking hearing. Are you suggesting that the police simply need to avoid that to get away with illegal detention? (The way you argue it’s quite possible you do).

A Probable Cause affidavit under oath is filed by a police officer. That affidavit is reviewed by the magistrate. If there is insufficient cause to hold a suspect, they are released. If there is sufficient reason that probable cause has been established then they remain in jail until they are bailed out or wait for their hearing.

And there’s an example. You can certainly point out that the arrest is illegal right there. That’s not a crime even if some cops would treat it as one. And there are further options later, right up to filing a civil case.

LOL, that is a crime... And unless you want to get beat up and arrested I would suggest that you fight your battles in the courtroom, not on the street.

quote:
A person commits an offense if he intentionally prevents or obstructs a person he knows is a peace officer or a person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his direction from effecting an arrest, search, or transportation of the actor or another by using force against the peace officer or another.

(b) It is no defense to prosecution under this section that the arrest or search was unlawful.

(c) Except as provided in Subsection (d), an offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

(d) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree if the actor uses a deadly weapon to resist the arrest or search.



"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4233 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2020 12:44 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4239 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2020 2:18 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6056
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 4237 of 4246 (880516)
08-07-2020 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 4235 by PaulK
08-07-2020 1:37 AM


Re: It’s not all outside agitators
That’s an odd thing to say when the Feds moved to other cities.

However this has nothing to do with my point that there were genuine protestors at Portland all the way through, and your assertions to the contrary were false. So I take your new allegations with a grain of salt.

Shifting the goalposts I see... You posted specifically about Portland and how wonderfully peaceful it is as soon as the Feds left. You even laid all of it at their feet as if violent riots hadn't been going on BEFORE they arrived and I'm now showing you that the violence continues AFTER they left.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4235 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2020 1:37 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4238 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2020 2:12 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16471
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 4238 of 4246 (880517)
08-07-2020 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 4237 by Hyroglyphx
08-07-2020 1:41 AM


Re: It’s not all outside agitators
quote:
Shifting the goalposts I see... You posted specifically about Portland and how wonderfully peaceful it is as soon as the Feds left.

I’m shifting the goalposts? YOU started talking about other cities:

At the time of this posting, other cities were ratcheted up, as ANTIFA commuted to different cities in which is to besiege

quote:
You even laid all of it at their feet as if violent riots hadn't been going on BEFORE they arrived and I'm now showing you that the violence continues AFTER they left.

I suggested that they were contributing to the violence.

And again, you ignore the central point that there were peaceful protestors in Portland all along.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4237 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-07-2020 1:41 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16471
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 4239 of 4246 (880519)
08-07-2020 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 4236 by Hyroglyphx
08-07-2020 1:39 AM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
quote:
Do you have anything specific in regards to your statement?

The arrest of Mark Pettibone referenced previously.

quote:
If its a lawful order they can.

I.e. there are restrictions on the orders they can give, just as I said.

quote:
A Probable Cause affidavit under oath is filed by a police officer. That affidavit is reviewed by the magistrate. If there is insufficient cause to hold a suspect, they are released. If there is sufficient reason that probable cause has been established then they remain in jail until they are bailed out or wait for their hearing.

And if no affidavit is filed?

quote:
LOL, that is a crime...

Saying that the arrest is illegal is a crime? Really? Your quote says nothing about that.

quote:
And unless you want to get beat up and arrested I would suggest that you fight your battles in the courtroom, not on the street.

At least we know who the violent thugs are now. If you’ll beat up people for simply saying things you don’t like that proves it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4236 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-07-2020 1:39 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
proudly roman catholic
Member
Posts: 1811
Joined: 01-12-2004
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 4240 of 4246 (880525)
08-07-2020 3:57 AM


"to attack my faith is shameful."-biden

what faith, joe?

shouldn't you be ashamed?


Replies to this message:
 Message 4243 by dwise1, posted 08-07-2020 12:08 PM proudly roman catholic has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6326
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 4241 of 4246 (880542)
08-07-2020 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 4233 by PaulK
08-07-2020 12:44 AM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
Hi Paulk,

Paulk writes:

For a start the Fourth Amendment right not to be arrested without adequate cause. Simply accusing the victims of crimes without adequate evidence as you are doing is not sufficient. In fact it’s evil.

Where does the Fourth Amendment say anything about being arrested?

quote:
Amendment IV.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Where does that say anything about being arrested?

Paulk writes:

Police authority is not unlimited.

They are limited by the laws that have been passed by our Congress and local governments.

They are not limited by what the limitation you think should be.

Paulk writes:

noticed that in this case they did NOT have adequate grounds for suspicion.

I would agree that in your opinion they did not have adequate grounds. But that does not limit their abilities to determine if a person is in violation of a law. The officer makes an arrest and the courts are there to make the decision of guilt or innocence through a jury.

Paulk writes:

There was no booking hearing. Are you suggesting that the police simply need to avoid that to get away with illegal detention? (The way you argue it’s quite possible you do).

So they did an interview and an agreement was made that the person or persons would not be arrested. That does not mean they were not guilty of committing a crime.

You and I have very different ideas of where your rights end and my rights begin.

You can walk around swinging your fists in the air all you want too. But when your swinging your fists in the air becomes a threat to me, my health, and well being your rights have ended and my rights have begun and I am at liberty to take whatever action that is necessary to insure my health and well being.

So you want to let the rioters destroy private property, burn cars and buildings without any consequences for their action. I on the other hand think everyone should be arrested, jailed, then make restitution to the injured parties. There are people whose lives and lively hood have been destroyed by these so called peaceful protesters.

You say well there are only a few bad apples. When the laws are broken any person that is a peaceful protestor will leave and if they do not they become just as guilty as the person throwing the missile or firebomb and should be treated accordingly.

A peaceful protest is one in which the organizers obtain a permit to stage their protest. During the protest no sidewalk traffic will be impeded neither will automobile traffic be impeded. You see when they imped either they are usurping those walking on the sidewalk or driving on the highway. That is like your fist and my well being.

Paulk writes:

That’s not a crime even if some cops would treat it as one.

I am going to assume you did not study Civics in school rather that to think you can not understand what is written down in black and white.

quote:
Is resisting arrest a crime?
A person commits the crime of resisting arrest if he intentionally prevents or attempts to prevent a peace officer from affecting a lawful arrest of himself or of another person. (b) Resisting arrest is a Class B misdemeanor.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4233 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2020 12:44 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4242 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2020 11:59 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16471
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 4242 of 4246 (880544)
08-07-2020 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 4241 by ICANT
08-07-2020 11:34 AM


Re: US Federal Brownshirts
[quote]Where does the Fourth Amendment say anything about being arrested?
[quote]It says that the citizens should be secure in their persons against unreasonable seizures.

quote:
They are limited by the laws that have been passed by our Congress and local governments.

They are not limited by what the limitation you think should be.


Don’t forget that there is a huge body of case law as well as the statutes. And the fact that you have trouble understanding 18th Century law doesn’t get them off the hook.

quote:
I would agree that in your opinion they did not have adequate grounds. But that does not limit their abilities to determine if a person is in violation of a law. The officer makes an arrest and the courts are there to make the decision of guilt or innocence through a jury.

Since we know that the officers admitted that they didn’t have grounds for an arrest it isn’t just my opinion.

quote:
So they did an interview and an agreement was made that the person or persons would not be arrested. That does not mean they were not guilty of committing a crime

Since Mark Pettibone wasn’t suspected of a crime when taken into custody or interviewed about anything that he had done or supposedly done this is irrelevant. But the idea that the illegality should be handled at the booking hearing is absurd when there was no booking or hearing.

quote:
You and I have very different ideas of where your rights end and my rights begin.

Indeed. You think you can take rights away be making up excuses.

quote:
You can walk around swinging your fists in the air all you want too. But when your swinging your fists in the air becomes a threat to me, my health, and well being your rights have ended and my rights have begun and I am at liberty to take whatever action that is necessary to insure my health and well being.

By which you mean you can make false accusations and expect the police to act on them. Again we are talking about the kidnap of a man who was not suspected of any crime.

quote:
So you want to let the rioters destroy private property, burn cars and buildings without any consequences for their action. I on the other hand think everyone should be arrested, jailed, then make restitution to the injured parties. There are people whose lives and lively hood have been destroyed by these so called peaceful protesters.

By which you mean that you want actual peaceful protestors arrested on false charges.

quote:
You say well there are only a few bad apples. When the laws are broken any person that is a peaceful protestor will leave and if they do not they become just as guilty as the person throwing the missile or firebomb and should be treated accordingly.

You assume that leaving will be easy. It may not even be possBible.

quote:
I am going to assume you did not study Civics in school rather that to think you can not understand what is written down in black and white.

As a matter of fact that isn’t taught as a subject over here.

Nevertheless saying that an arrest is illegal would seem to be protected by the First Amendment and does not seem to qualify as resisting arrest by any reasonable standard. Despite what you say.

And if it is, too bad for your country.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4241 by ICANT, posted 08-07-2020 11:34 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4212
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 4243 of 4246 (880545)
08-07-2020 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 4240 by proudly roman catholic
08-07-2020 3:57 AM


"to attack my faith is shameful."-biden

what faith, joe?

shouldn't you be ashamed?

Joe Biden is a F**KING CATHOLIC!

Who else here is a Catholic. Oh, yeah YOU ARE YOU F**KING HYPOCRITE!

OK, I'm not Catholic, but I assume that you have at least some passing familiarity with the Bible. And the Gospels. Do please correct me if I am mistaken.

Now, if you had ever actually read the Gospels, then you should know without any possible margin of doubt (since the narrative did make it extremely clear) what Jesus HIMSELF said of how evil HYPOCRITES are. According to my reading of the Gospels, there was nothing that JESUS HIMSELF hated more than HYPOCRICTES. OK, maybe I'm wrong. Do please make your case to the contrary. I'm not going to hold my breath, because I know that you will not even begin to consider doing any such thing SINCE YOU HAVE BEEN CAUGHT IN THE ACT!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4240 by proudly roman catholic, posted 08-07-2020 3:57 AM proudly roman catholic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4244 by proudly roman catholic, posted 08-07-2020 12:37 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
proudly roman catholic
Member
Posts: 1811
Joined: 01-12-2004
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 4244 of 4246 (880548)
08-07-2020 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 4243 by dwise1
08-07-2020 12:08 PM


joe biden is not a catholic. him, cuomo, and pelosi need to be excommunicated. they legislate proabortion and support the slaughter of the preborn innocents. they act in opposition of the church.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4243 by dwise1, posted 08-07-2020 12:08 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4245 by jar, posted 08-07-2020 3:58 PM proudly roman catholic has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32724
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 4245 of 4246 (880564)
08-07-2020 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 4244 by proudly roman catholic
08-07-2020 12:37 PM


About time those who actually follow Jesus act act in opposition of the church ********** perversion of Christianity that you market.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4244 by proudly roman catholic, posted 08-07-2020 12:37 PM proudly roman catholic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4246 by proudly roman catholic, posted 08-07-2020 4:56 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020