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Author Topic:   Science proves that the tomb of Jesus (Christ ?)and James the Just have been found.
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 78 of 114 (824082)
11-22-2017 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
01-20-2017 7:05 AM


Re: Conclusion
Yes, it did throw doubt. In my opinion, there is a motive to distract people from the truth. You call it a myth, I know. Lack of evidence, you say. I try and explain that faith comes by hearing and believing. You cite evidence to dismiss the story.
My irritation arises because people seem to want to not believe rather than to believe. You would perhaps say that you prefer reality over fantasy. I would tell you that reality is not always how it appears and that belief will be helpful.
Hi Phat,
The problem with believing in things without evidence is that it gives you the luxury of believing anything you want to be true or wish were true. I was talking in class just this morning about the relative masses of stars (It was waaaay off class topic). One of the students from Saudi Arabia interrupted me and started wondering aloud how you could possibly understand this information and not believe in God. It blew his mind that people could be atheists in a universe as immense and breathtaking as ours. Of course, I chuckled inwardly a little as I knew the God he was thinking of was very different than the God I was raised to worship. But my student and you both speak of your respected invisible beings in the exact same awed voices. He dismisses your reality in the same off-handed way you dismiss his or any other's religious reality. I find it frighteningly sad.
I DO call your God a myth, in the exact same way I call HIS God a myth, or any other magical, invisible being humans have ever worshiped a myth. It's not because I don't want to believe; it's that I have no actual reason to believe. I was raised a christian and until my early thirties believed I was truly called into full-time ministry, but believing without reason to believe; believing despite evidence to the contrary became less and less satisfying.
If you can truly give me a reason to believe that is not based on ancient religious text (loads of religions have those), or from personal feelings (loads of religions have those), or from some magical revelation (loads of religions have those) I am truly open to listening.
You may ask how. I'm still thinking how to answer you.
I invite you to think long and very carefully. If you are really honest with yourself, you may find that there is actually NO answer to anyone asking you "How."

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 01-20-2017 7:05 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-22-2017 2:21 PM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


(1)
Message 80 of 114 (824091)
11-22-2017 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by New Cat's Eye
11-22-2017 2:21 PM


Re: Conclusion
I found God. I don't really know that it is God, but I believe that it is without evidence.
That doesn't mean, to me, that I can believe that I can fly off a cliff even though I really want that to be true.
Well, You certainly believe in God without evidence, that's your prerogative. BUT you do not believe you can fly off a cliff without evidence. There is a mountain of evidence at your disposal that should lead you to a very accurate prediction of what will happen to you should you actually try. Flight off of cliffs is a scientific proposition and is testable. People manipulate physical laws all the time to do it safely; in hand gliders for example. Belief in invisible entities that can manipulate nature through what amounts in any other scenario to magic words... "Let there be..." THAT is untestable and unevidenced belief.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-22-2017 2:21 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-22-2017 3:49 PM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 83 of 114 (824097)
11-22-2017 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by New Cat's Eye
11-22-2017 3:49 PM


Re: Conclusion
Okay. Still though, believing in an unevidenced thing doesn't mean I can believe whatever I want.
What I said was in no way an insult. I have read your posts with great interest for years! But in the religious arena you DO believe what you want, what you want to be true. Every religious person in the modern world is believing what they want, with zero evidence. Faith is a fancy sounding way of saying "I believe in vastly improbable things without a good reason to." That's why religions have profoundly mutually exclusive articles of faith; because there is no way to validate the veracity of their claims. Religions are simply "People believing whatever they want." And the religious beliefs on Earth are almost as vast as the human imagination. That should be a giant, flashing warning sign.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-22-2017 3:49 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 4:22 PM Aussie has replied
 Message 106 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 11:32 AM Aussie has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 85 of 114 (824104)
11-22-2017 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by LamarkNewAge
11-22-2017 4:22 PM


Re: Conclusion
There are also a very great many serious Islamic scholars who think very deeply about their articles of faith, and what they believe. I mean, you don't think Christianity is all alone with its share of Scholars, do you?
But again, these intelligent, deeply thinking Scholars are commenting on things with absolutely no evidence at all! Your Christian Scholars have the exact quality of evidence as Islamic scholars, or Scholars of any religion. You naturally give more Credence to the Christian Scholars, because they confirm to you what you want to be true, without evidence again.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 4:22 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 4:59 PM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 87 of 114 (824110)
11-22-2017 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by LamarkNewAge
11-22-2017 4:59 PM


Re: Tabor is accused of being a semi-closeted JEW-by-choice
I'm actually not reading much into your post at all. Even if Jesus was a historical figure, he was almost certainly not magical. I know this sounds like an insult, but in the real world Miracles are indistinguishable from Magic. In the same way, Muhammad was a historical figure, that people have taken and placed in a magical context. Muslims believe that Muhammad rode up to heaven on a flying horse, but you believe Jesus Christ will return as per the Book of Revelation, on a flying horse. Historical figures, wrapped up in magic. And all you have given are commentaries on a book describing magical events. Why should I believe your Scholars anymore than any other Scholars of any other religion?

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 4:59 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 5:22 PM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 90 of 114 (824113)
11-22-2017 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by LamarkNewAge
11-22-2017 5:22 PM


Re: Tabor is accused of being a semi-closeted JEW-by-choice
You seem to have already decided what you want to say.
I have decided in only the sense that I have thought a lot about it over the last 15 years. But I don't know everything, and I'm willing to learn if you have things to teach me.
I don't know where to begin, with all of these non-starter comments (do you mistake me for another poster?)
In what sense are my comments non-starters? And I'm replying to you at this point.
Martin Luther didn't even believe in Revelation being authored by John the Apostle or any inspired writer.
I don't really care what Martin Luther believed. Martin Luther was able to believe anything he wanted, because religious people without evidence can make up anything they like! That was my original point to Phat and CatSci.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 5:22 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
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