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Author Topic:   Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
Chiroptera
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Posts: 6702
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 629 of 1006 (805166)
04-16-2017 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 626 by Faith
04-16-2017 10:30 AM


Hi, Faith. Long time no see.

If we're animals that descended from animals why should we have any obligation to ...anything in particular?

Well, when our modern democratic republics overthrew the old feudal order, we decided that a person's ancestry is irrelevant in how we deal with them. We treat a person based on who she is. I don't see how evolution changes any of this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 626 by Faith, posted 04-16-2017 10:30 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6702
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 740 of 1006 (806275)
04-24-2017 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 737 by bluegenes
04-24-2017 2:03 AM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
Surely you're not suggesting that your God would not be capable of imagination, planning, designing and constructing etc.?

Well, that would be the conclusion from their theology. Their god is perfect and always does whatever is the absolute best. In any situation, there is one absolute best course of action. Ergo, their god has no free will, and planning would be a useless trait. It's not even clear whether their god is even a conscious being.


I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 737 by bluegenes, posted 04-24-2017 2:03 AM bluegenes has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6702
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


(6)
Message 741 of 1006 (806278)
04-24-2017 9:08 AM


Trying to understand the question
Okay, I'm trying to understand why being "just a collection" of atoms implies that we can't come up with our own meanings in life.

I mean, it's like saying that all paintings are just collections of atoms so that one is just as good as the other. Or do fundamentalists need God to tell them which paintings are beautiful?


I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. -- Paul Krugman

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6702
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 746 of 1006 (806460)
04-25-2017 7:33 PM


Another question:
How does someone bigger than you telling you what to do give your life meaning?

If I make a child laugh by making a funny face, and I do that without being told to by someone bigger than me, why does that make my life meaningless?


I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. -- Paul Krugman

Replies to this message:
 Message 748 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-25-2017 11:48 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded
 Message 773 by Dredge, posted 04-27-2017 3:20 AM Chiroptera has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6702
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 747 of 1006 (806465)
04-25-2017 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 745 by Taq
04-25-2017 5:20 PM


Double meanings
We have minds so we can determine what the meaning of our lives will be.

Ha ha! I'm sure that you meant, "We have minds; therefore we can determine our own meanings."

But the second time I read it, it somehow got interpreted in my mind as, "We were given minds for the purpose of determining our own meanings."

Food for thought, theists!


I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 745 by Taq, posted 04-25-2017 5:20 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6702
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 758 of 1006 (806486)
04-26-2017 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 753 by Dredge
04-26-2017 12:41 AM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
(The law of the land is irrelevant, since whoever is in power gets to impose their version of morality on everyone else; or laws are arrived by concensus, which is also irrelevant, because consensus doesn't prove that a law is morally correct.)

That's pretty much true...as long as you mind your own business. But if you were to decide to harass a same-sex couple (or if your business discriminates against a same-sex couple in a jurisdiction that protects sexual orientation in its anti-discrimination laws), you'll find that the law becomes pretty relevant real quick.


I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 753 by Dredge, posted 04-26-2017 12:41 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6702
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 765 of 1006 (806594)
04-26-2017 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 734 by Dredge
04-24-2017 12:55 AM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
Okay, I admit I'm beginning to lose track of where this is going. How much DNA should we share with a banana before we can find meaning in our lives.

I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 734 by Dredge, posted 04-24-2017 12:55 AM Dredge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 766 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-26-2017 5:25 PM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply
 Message 767 by 1.61803, posted 04-26-2017 5:43 PM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6702
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 776 of 1006 (806661)
04-27-2017 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 773 by Dredge
04-27-2017 3:20 AM


Re: Another question:
I thought the question was clear enough, but maybe not. Do you really need me to clarify my point, or are you deciding to not answer the question?

Added by edit:

Okay, in case my point was obscure and I need to clarify, I've decided to give a proper reply.

Message 778

Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.


I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 773 by Dredge, posted 04-27-2017 3:20 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6702
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 778 of 1006 (806678)
04-27-2017 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 773 by Dredge
04-27-2017 3:20 AM


Let's start over.
Okay, I'm going to go ahead and give a proper response to this to save some time. You may have already responded to similar questions, but by the time I've come to this thread, the conversation has already moved ahead and become (to a late comer) confusing.

-

For the record, I am an atheist and I accept the theory of evolution as the unifying theory of biology that has passed all the scientific tests put to it.

So:

I find meaning in my life and find it rather enjoyable over all. I also have a sense of morality upon which I act.

What is your issue with that?


I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 773 by Dredge, posted 04-27-2017 3:20 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 780 by Davidjay, posted 04-27-2017 9:53 AM Chiroptera has responded
 Message 835 by Dredge, posted 05-01-2017 4:19 AM Chiroptera has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6702
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 783 of 1006 (806737)
04-27-2017 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 780 by Davidjay
04-27-2017 9:53 AM


Re: Atheism and Evolution are bed mates
I don't think this is Dredge's point, but I'll go ahead and answer one of you points.

Davidjay writes:

Evolution is about competition and not about co-operation.... Evolution leads to selfishness, and the extinctions of others that take our supposed resources or are in competition for our resources.

Scientific theories are descriptive - they explain why the world is the way it is. They are not prescriptive - they don't tell us what are ethical decisions should be. Any "meaning" that can be taken from a scientific theory, if any, is up to the individual.

Saying that the theory of evolution implies we should all act selfish is the same as saying the theory of gravity means we should all crawl on our bellies and live in valleys.

Edited by Chiroptera, : Hit submit instead of preview.

Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.

Edited by Chiroptera, : Serious typo. Yikes!


I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 780 by Davidjay, posted 04-27-2017 9:53 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6702
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 787 of 1006 (806759)
04-27-2017 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 785 by ringo
04-27-2017 12:16 PM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
ringo writes:

Evolution is about survival of the species, not the individual.

If I may be allowed to be pedantic, evolution is about certain gene combinations surviving into the next generation.

Usually this is accomplished by the survival of the individual long enough to produce offspring. For some species, though, an individual making a sacrifice to help related individuals survive to reproduce can have the same effect.

In either case, the result is the species thrives.


I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 785 by ringo, posted 04-27-2017 12:16 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6702
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 797 of 1006 (806888)
04-28-2017 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 795 by Dr Adequate
04-28-2017 7:28 PM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
Oh, God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man you must be puttin' me on"
God says, "No", Abe say "What?"
God say "You can do what you want Abe but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe said, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God say, "Out on Highway 61"

Bob Dylan


I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 795 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-28-2017 7:28 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 799 by Davidjay, posted 04-29-2017 9:06 AM Chiroptera has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6702
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 803 of 1006 (806944)
04-29-2017 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 799 by Davidjay
04-29-2017 9:06 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
This comment is not appropriate for this thread. I have responded here: Message 190.

I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 799 by Davidjay, posted 04-29-2017 9:06 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6702
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 807 of 1006 (806967)
04-29-2017 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 805 by Davidjay
04-29-2017 10:15 PM


Re: Re:Atheists and evolutionists have no morals.
Athesists usually have no moral code, but one they dream up themself....

But then, so does everyone else, too.


Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. – Billy Bragg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 805 by Davidjay, posted 04-29-2017 10:15 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6702
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 819 of 1006 (806994)
04-30-2017 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 809 by Dredge
04-30-2017 12:43 AM


Welcome back, Dredge.

Humans can and do form their own codes of morality, but it could be anything.

And I look around and that's pretty much what I see. A lot of different people who seem to have their own codes of morality. And that's just the Christians! Include the non-Christians, and it really does seem to be anything.

And yet we seem to be able to deal with it. Rather than living in a Mad Max dystopia, we seem to be living in more or less functioning societies where we are capable of deciding that some thing are differences of opinion that we can live with, and others are egregious enough that we need to enact laws to constrain them.

-

It also makes sense that this God will let humans know what is right and wrong.

Except when I look around and see the wide variety of morals - even among the Christians! - it appears that God isn't doing all that effective job at letting people know what is right and wrong. So it appears that believing in God leads to exactly the same situation that you were worried about.

-

If I recall correctly, your original point was that if the theory of evolution were true, then we'd have no basis for morality and/or our lives are meaningless. You never really countered the fact that those of us who accept the theory of evolution do have meaningful lives and we do have a sense of right and wrong upon which we act.

Did you want to continue that discussion, or have you decided to move on?


Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. – Billy Bragg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 809 by Dredge, posted 04-30-2017 12:43 AM Dredge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 826 by Davidjay, posted 04-30-2017 9:42 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
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