Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 53 (9179 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: Jorge Parker
Happy Birthday: Theodoric
Post Volume: Total: 918,139 Year: 5,396/9,624 Month: 421/323 Week: 61/204 Day: 3/34 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 404 of 1006 (801456)
03-06-2017 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 403 by ringo
03-06-2017 11:21 AM


Absolutes
ringo writes:
I've asked you more than once to tell us the absolute meaning of, "Thou shalt not kill." If there are exceptions, how is it absolute?
Just thought I might jump in. No it isn't absolute.
The laws pointed us in the right direction but Jesus told, and showed us, that the only absolute is the law of love. It is all about our hearts. Paul got it right in his first letter to the Corinthians when he says that ultimately God will judge the motives of our hearts. Are we motivated by self interest or are we motivated by the love of our neighbour and for all of God's creation?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by ringo, posted 03-06-2017 11:21 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by ringo, posted 03-06-2017 11:57 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 407 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2017 12:56 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 408 of 1006 (801472)
03-06-2017 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Tangle
03-06-2017 12:56 PM


Re: Absolutes
Tangle writes:
Ah, that old phoney - conscience :-) The universal get out of jail card.
The first time I tripped over the argument was with the Catholic position on birth control. The Vatican ruled it out. Flat wrong. An absolute. If the intention is to avoid having a baby, it's a sin. Intention = conscience = 'what's in your heart'.
But they came up against the modern Western populous who basically told them to take a hike and totally ignored this 'mortal sin' that would condemn them to hell for all eternity. So the Catholic church faced with a total revolt rolled over decided that it's a matter of conscience and if people truly believed it was ok, then it was ok.
Meawhile it was still a mortal sin for the poor bloody Africans and millions died and are dying from AIDS for lack of condom use.
You see, what's in people's 'hearts' varies between people, education levels, cultures and times.
Eating people is wrong, but only if you're not a cannibal.
But you’re missing the point. You are taking your view and the views of others and finding them not to be in agreement of what constitutes sin. Some things are pretty obvious and there really isn’t much disagreement over the belief that someone’s actions are based on greed and about looking after their desires at the expense of others. Many things as you point out though, are a lot more ambiguous and we just do our best.
I mentioned earlier Paul’s 1st letter to the Corinithians Chap 4 . He says this:
quote:
2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful.
3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.
4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
Neither of us are able to actually able to see inside the hearts of others and we can’t even be sure of our own motives. As humans we are going to disagree on the right actions in given circumstances. Secularists will disagree with each other, Christians will disagree with each other, and so on for any group you want to mention.
In the end what God wants is hearts that love sacrificially and we are called to do our best to sort that out in our lives knowing that others won’t always agree. On faith I do ultimately trust that God is a god of perfect justice and that perfect justice will prevail. He will balance out the heart of someone like myself who grew up in a loving environment as well as someone who grew up in a cold or even abusive environment.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2017 12:56 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2017 3:16 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 411 of 1006 (801496)
03-06-2017 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by Tangle
03-06-2017 3:16 PM


Re: Absolutes
Tangle writes:
I'm not missing the point of the thread which is about moral absolutes which it seems we agree on. So not agreeing on what constitutes sin is the entire point - if we all have differing 'hearts' on these issues, then morality is not absolute.
I may be splitting hairs here, but I would say that there is such a thing as absolute morality in the Christian sense in that we are called to have hearts that love sacrificially. Ultimately it isn’t about our actions or our doctrine but about our hearts. If we have hearts that love the self even at the expense of others then that is absolute immorality. If we have hearts which love sacrificially, (which nobody is going to attain perfectly in this life), then that is absolute morality.
Tangle writes:
Then it gets to be real fun. If the 'heart' of Jack the Ripper was true to itself, and believed that slicing and dicing prostitutes in the East End of London was the right thing to do, then your god has to accept that it's ok. I happens to agree with him - intent is was counts - but it's not ok is it? Certainly not in Dawn's world.
Let’s set aside mental illness, which may have been the case for Jack, and look at his actions. The most likely motive that we can see for his actions was that he took pleasure in killing and the prostitutes were soft targets. Possibly he felt that the world was a better place without them but that completely goes against everything that Jesus taught. In either case I think that as a Christian I can judge his actions to be absolutely wrong.
However, as to his absolute morality I would certainly form the opinion that his actions absolutely immoral, but, that is only my opinion, I will leave it to God to judge his sense of morality which is his heart. (Personally I don’t think it looks good for him. )

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2017 3:16 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2017 4:34 PM GDR has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024