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Author Topic:   Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 1 of 1006 (798448)
02-02-2017 3:56 PM


Simply put I would say the Atheist has no rational or logical way to formulate an actual moral or ethic, from a reality standpoint.

While it's possible for him or her to imagine or perceive such a thing, there is simply no way in reality this is possible. I can easily developed that point.

In the first place, this is not a moral it's an Instinct, any animal can avoid pain or misery. It takes no thinking process.

Secondly, since according to the Naturalistic proposition, much animal life existed before the human brain, it would follow that pain or misery and it's avoidance was not invented as a moral by the human mind, therefore not an actual moral or ethic. The lion and Bear do not share your opinion,when they are on the giving end of misery. We only discovered that it's a thing to avoid as well, for natural reasons, not ethical ones.

Thirdly, since I can get very different responses from human minds as to what constitutes a moral or immoral act, it should be immediately evident that there is no way to establish OBJECTIVELY, from a Naturalistic standpoint, what is in REALITY morally real.

Therefore, it is logically impossible for an actual ethic or moral to exist from the Atheistic standpoint, in Reality.

Dawn Bertot


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Taq, posted 02-02-2017 4:33 PM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 4 by PaulK, posted 02-02-2017 4:39 PM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 5 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-02-2017 5:45 PM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 6 by Modulous, posted 02-02-2017 6:11 PM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 7 by frako, posted 02-02-2017 6:12 PM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 9 by Porosity, posted 02-02-2017 8:00 PM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2017 9:33 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded
 Message 39 by RAZD, posted 02-03-2017 9:49 AM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 02-03-2017 2:22 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded
 Message 83 by nwr, posted 02-04-2017 3:46 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded
 Message 769 by Davidjay, posted 04-26-2017 9:57 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded
 Message 1003 by granpa, posted 10-12-2017 8:01 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 12 of 1006 (798491)
02-02-2017 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Taq
02-02-2017 4:33 PM


what??????
Taq writes
It would seem to me that you are saying that there isn't a rational way to formulate an actual moral or ethic. Period. I really don't see what this has to do with atheism.

No I never said anything close to that, dont see how you got that out of what I said. It doesn't matter what I believe, for the SFH, to be unable to establish an actual moral, in reality. We will develope that for you as we go along

Dawn Bertot


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Taq, posted 02-02-2017 4:33 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by JonF, posted 02-03-2017 8:36 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 13 of 1006 (798492)
02-02-2017 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by PaulK
02-02-2017 4:39 PM


Paulk writes
So yes, Taq is right. As is surprisingly common an argument against atheistic morality is in reality just an argument against morality.

Don't see how that follows


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by PaulK, posted 02-02-2017 4:39 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by PaulK, posted 02-03-2017 12:03 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 14 of 1006 (798493)
02-02-2017 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Modulous
02-02-2017 6:11 PM


Mod writes
When you say this what do you mean by the term 'a moral'? Why can morals not derive from an instinctual basis?

Instinct by its very nature can take no thought

What do you mean 'therefore not an actual moral or ethic'? I don't follow your logic. I think that's because you didn't provide it.

A moral is a thought concept or reasoned idea the likes of which, no more information can be added to it to make it more correct or less correct. This would be called infinite wisdom. This is what it would take for you to have an actual moral or ethic in reality.
Do you?

I reject the notion of an objective morality.

Then I was correct, as an Atheist you have no rational moral in reality

Dawn Bertot

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Modulous, posted 02-02-2017 6:11 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Modulous, posted 02-03-2017 2:08 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 15 of 1006 (798496)
02-02-2017 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by frako
02-02-2017 6:12 PM


Frako writes
when you boil it down its simple any act against the community is immoral and acts for the good of the community are moral. Or at least that is what evolution selected for. Immoral communities with selfish members that acted only in their own interests died out, while communities where everyone pulled together flourished. ITs religion that has perverted this instinct and supplemented it with their flawed morality.

If this is the case as you state can I ask you a question
I noticed in this MONKEY video, they are in cages. Did they do something wrong? Did they commit a crime to be incarcerated, probably against thier will?

I thought slavery was wrong.

You see Frako you can't even get out of the starting gate from a rational logical standpoint. Your moral has to be consistent across all species, not just humans.

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by frako, posted 02-02-2017 6:12 PM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by dwise1, posted 02-03-2017 1:37 AM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 59 by frako, posted 02-03-2017 4:02 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 16 of 1006 (798498)
02-02-2017 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by JonF
02-02-2017 6:43 PM


Jonf writes
suspect a hidden "except for...".

Buhhhhhh?

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by JonF, posted 02-02-2017 6:43 PM JonF has not yet responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 17 of 1006 (798499)
02-02-2017 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Porosity
02-02-2017 8:00 PM


X

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Porosity, posted 02-02-2017 8:00 PM Porosity has not yet responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 18 of 1006 (798500)
02-02-2017 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Porosity
02-02-2017 8:00 PM


I don't know what sort of alternative reality you're living

No alternate reality. Here at this website I'm known as Mr Reality. Ask around

Also, history has proven that morality is SUBJECTIVE, once upon a time it was cool to own slaves, 

You mean like monkeys and other species? I'll make a monkey out of you yet Porosity

Answer me this Sir.

If morality is the lessening of maximum misery, would it be morally correct to exterminate a colony of rats by poisonous pellets?

Dawn Bertot

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Porosity, posted 02-02-2017 8:00 PM Porosity has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Porosity, posted 02-02-2017 11:17 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 19 of 1006 (798501)
02-02-2017 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by JonF
02-02-2017 9:15 PM


He didn't go that far yet. He's just implied that any morality atheists exhibit is irrational. It's the same old "rational atheists should conclude that they can do anything they want, so why aren't they rampaging and murdering and raping and pillaging?".

I regard anyone who thinks religious belief is required for moral behavior with some concern. But they are a priori wrong, atheists in general are moral. That is an observed fact, so the interesting question is "why?", not "why are you doing atheism wrong? ".

Time to to get busy son, with Mr reality. My objection is a logical one not emotional or personal.
Given that all thing in nature are equal as far as life is concerned. That is, all life is sacred and deserves to thrive and survive, just like you.
Would it be murder to put several chickens to death for your consumption. If not, could you kill and eat another human, since all life is just life

What would be the difference of murder in one instance and just something else in another instance

Trying to get you to see that morality has to come from a source outside the human construct or perspective, otherwise it's just inconsistent subjective nonsense. The chicken doesn't share your views about what constitutes murder or misery

Mr Sam Harris sloppy reasoning, notwithstanding

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by JonF, posted 02-02-2017 9:15 PM JonF has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Modulous, posted 02-03-2017 2:12 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded
 Message 118 by Taq, posted 02-06-2017 10:32 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 20 of 1006 (798503)
02-02-2017 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dr Adequate
02-02-2017 5:45 PM


Well, you go ahead and try to establish morality from a theistic standpoint, and we'll see if you can do any better.

How am I doing so far there, Dr A

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-02-2017 5:45 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-02-2017 11:25 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 22 of 1006 (798505)
02-02-2017 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Coyote
02-02-2017 10:54 PM


Re: Religion Cannot Rationally Explain Morals
Atheism Religion Cannot Rationally Explain Morals

There are some 20,000 world religions, and some 40,000 sects, branches, denominations and flavors of christianity alone. There is nowhere close to an agreement on any given set of morals among those religions.

Sorry to have to burst your bubble.

(Or, are you figuring that it is your own religion that is the only one that counts?)

No u miss the whole point. The question is not do people or can people get things wrong wild Coyote. This is a question pitted against reality and what it will allow in the area of morality

Can people religious or not be the source for an absolute moral.

IOWs, if it's OK to eat another living thing and it's not murder, why could people not kill and eat other people on a regular basis and it not be murder
You have to take it out of the personal realm into the completely rational and reality realm

Dawn Bertot


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Coyote, posted 02-02-2017 10:54 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by vimesey, posted 02-03-2017 4:29 AM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 35 by jar, posted 02-03-2017 6:28 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 02-03-2017 10:53 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 25 of 1006 (798508)
02-02-2017 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Porosity
02-02-2017 11:17 PM


Rats are irrelevant to human wellness, unless your poisoning a colony of beloved pets or a shop owners prized possession of hairless rats.

How long are you going to tap dance, or are you just trolling?

Stay calm son and quit getting emotional, it blinds you to reality. Of course rats are irrelevant to human wellness. That's not the point

For a moral to be real and rational from a Naturalistic standpoint, it has to be consistent in its tenets for all life, because all life is equal, true

But you didn't answer my question. Is it moral to exterminate a colony of rats with poisonous pellets, yes or no. And how did u arrive at that conclusion
Tell me your reasoning of why it's OK or not ok

If you think I'm tap dancing, ask me a direct question and I'll answer it. You've ask me nothing yet

Dawn Bertot

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Porosity, posted 02-02-2017 11:17 PM Porosity has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Porosity, posted 02-02-2017 11:41 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 26 of 1006 (798509)
02-02-2017 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Dr Adequate
02-02-2017 11:25 PM


Since you haven't tried, you have failed.

Ah Dr Inadequate your always good for a larf, not much else, but you do succeed in that area


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-02-2017 11:25 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-03-2017 12:20 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 28 of 1006 (798512)
02-02-2017 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Porosity
02-02-2017 11:41 PM


have no feelings, I'm indifferent to trolling.

Here's a question.. Where do you get your morals from?

Not sure what your definition of trolling is but I've been here since 2007 with nearly 4000 posts and numerous threads

But to answer your question, my morals come from the God of the Bible, he has infinite wisdom, that's why he's God and can establish morals for creatures


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Porosity, posted 02-02-2017 11:41 PM Porosity has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Porosity, posted 02-03-2017 12:58 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded
 Message 117 by Taq, posted 02-06-2017 10:28 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 29 of 1006 (798513)
02-03-2017 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Porosity
02-02-2017 11:41 PM


See u in the morning if your still around goes to crash
This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Porosity, posted 02-02-2017 11:41 PM Porosity has not yet responded

    
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