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Author Topic:   Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 71 of 1006 (798635)
02-04-2017 4:11 AM


Still struggling to understand the title:

quote:
Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.

What has atheism got to do with morality?

Does your thesis work equally well as

Hindism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals? Or

Ancestor Worship Cannot Rationally Explain Morals? Or

Spaghetti Cannot Rationally Explain Morals?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-04-2017 11:18 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 93 of 1006 (798720)
02-05-2017 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Dawn Bertot
02-04-2017 11:18 PM


Dawn writes:

Should just ask do morals exist in a strictly Naturalistic world. No

Our worls is self-evidently 'naturalistic' and morals self-evidently exist within it, so you leave me totally baffled.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-04-2017 11:18 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-05-2017 3:29 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 95 of 1006 (798724)
02-05-2017 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Thugpreacha
02-05-2017 3:29 AM


Phat writes:

1. Christianity is a revealed religion.
2. God’s revelation is a self-disclosure. He removes the veil that keeps us
from knowing Him.
3. We do not come to know God through speculation.
4. God revealed Himself in various ways throughout history.
5. General revelation is given to all human beings.
6. Atheism and agnosticism are based on a denial of what people know to
be true. (I know you will challenge this, but oh well)
7. Foolishness is founded on the denial of God.
8. Wisdom is founded on the fear of God.

Was there a point in posting this uttter twaddle Phat? It's just the rant of a mad priest. "Wisdom is founded on the fear of God"?????? Wtf? Have you fallen off your wagon?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-05-2017 3:29 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-05-2017 3:38 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 97 of 1006 (798731)
02-05-2017 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Thugpreacha
02-05-2017 3:38 AM


Re: Morality and Boredom
Phat writes:

nahh i was just bored. I figured if i pushed a button or two i might get a response!

It's interesting that you can produce random preachery nonsense at will. Just like the real thing. Is there an app for that?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-05-2017 3:38 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-05-2017 1:24 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 105 of 1006 (798774)
02-05-2017 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Thugpreacha
02-05-2017 1:24 PM


Re: Morality and Boredom
Phat writes:

why must the Priest be mad?

Because he's saying insane things such as, but not limited to:

"Wisdom is founded on the fear of God."


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-05-2017 1:24 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-06-2017 3:53 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(3)
Message 115 of 1006 (798867)
02-06-2017 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Thugpreacha
02-06-2017 3:53 AM


Re: Morality and Boredom
Phat writes:

But this is what the book clearly says.

What more evidence do you need? You'd have to be out of your mind to believe that kind of nonsense.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-06-2017 3:53 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 164 of 1006 (799201)
02-08-2017 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Dawn Bertot
02-07-2017 8:51 PM


Re: nazis
Dawn writes:

I concede that these are biological processes that mean nothing, just like your, thoughts, you emotions, etc, given your position

No none of these are objective, but there not subjective either in your thinking. Just junk happening

This is the nearest you've come to understanding how moral decisions are made by real people living real lives. They make the best choices given their biological make up and socialised upbringing.

Morality IS a biological process, it's an emotion like sadness or love that can be detected in the brain. Unless you're a psychopath, you are born with empathic feelings which are evolved traits that allow us to get along together. These traits are reinforced by our parent's values and society's laws. This is why morality differs by individual, society and over time. It's anything but absolute or objective and is easily shown to be so.

How individuals react to difficult moral choices and what their brains are doing whilst they're considering them has been extensively studied by rabid atheists in white jackets that everybody else calls scientists. If you're genuinely interested in understanding morality as it applies in reality I suggest you start by reading the story of Fred and the Trolley Problems.

http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=16015
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-07-2017 8:51 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by RAZD, posted 02-08-2017 10:21 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 172 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-08-2017 10:25 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 166 of 1006 (799234)
02-08-2017 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by RAZD
02-08-2017 10:21 AM


Re: nazis
Just in case you didn't read to the end, the trolley problem(s) is no longer just an experimnetal thought excercise, it's become very real.

quote:
Problems analogous to the trolley problem arise in the design of autonomous cars, in situations where the car's software is forced during an accident to choose between multiple courses of action (sometimes including options which include the death of the car's occupants), all of which may cause harm.[30][31][32][33][34] A platform called Moral Machine was created by MIT Media Lab to allow the public to express their opinions on what decisions autonomous vehicles should make in scenarios that use the trolley problem paradigm.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by RAZD, posted 02-08-2017 10:21 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 175 of 1006 (799308)
02-09-2017 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Dawn Bertot
02-08-2017 10:25 PM


Re: nazis
Dawn writes:

Best choices are fine, but when they have no direction, the are like a fart in the wind. And in your system everyone's fart goes a different direction, aimlessly and to no purpose.

That would be OUR system, the system that we actually work with, not the one you fantasise about.

I note that you ignore the evidence I gave you that demonstrtaes that morality is a biological process and that everyone's morality doesn't go in different directions except when the brain's neurology gets kicked out of ballance by drugs, illness or genetics. The supernatural process that you propose would be unaffected by such 'meat-based' stuff.

Perceptions, idea, thoughts and concepts may be bio processes, but morality or truth would need to be something, outside and independent of those processes,

Morality is self-evidently confined inside individual entities and can easily be shown to be so using FMRI scans, changes to behaviour caused by drugs and illness and the study of the brains of those that lack the ability to make moral choices - psychopaths and sociopaths.

No entity outside the body has ever been identified that could influence our thoughts and behaviours and if it existed and could do so, it would render us puppets. The entire laughable edifice of free will collapses. Congrats.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-08-2017 10:25 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(3)
Message 217 of 1006 (799674)
02-13-2017 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Dr Adequate
02-13-2017 1:02 AM


Dr.A writes:

I haven't been following the thread. Did Dawn ever come up with a rational theistic explanation for morality?

Take a wild guess....

As far as I can establish, he has three assertions

If something is relative - eg morality - it can't exist 'in reality' (???)
If we treat ants worse than people, we can't argue that we are moral creatures
Absolute morality is god given and infinite.

Or something like that(TM)

He's not making any progress on any of them - mostly because he appears to be batshit bonkers.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-13-2017 1:02 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-13-2017 8:49 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 232 of 1006 (799753)
02-14-2017 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Dawn Bertot
02-13-2017 8:49 PM


DB writes:

Well, in a sloppy way , yeah that sums up my position pretty well, but since u offered nothing more than an observation, I have nothing to respond to in an argument form. You must not have one.

I was just trying to help out Dr A who's dipping in and out of here and is quite understandably feeling puzzled about what your arguments might be. Plenty of people are trying to educate you about these points so there's no need for me to butt in.

You could, however, give me your thoughts on Fred and the trolley problems and the explanation that morality is just another evolved trait - a maleable brain state - which can be changed by illnesness, conditioning and drugs and is therefore neither absolute, immutable nor god given.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-13-2017 8:49 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-14-2017 11:47 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 244 of 1006 (799784)
02-15-2017 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Dawn Bertot
02-14-2017 11:47 PM


DB writes:

Evolved traits have no hope of being good or evil, or moral.

I think we can all agree that. But they do, demonstrably, create feelings and behaviours that we call moral or immoral. We know this because when people are born without some of these instincts their behaviour is what we call immoral or even 'evil'. We call these people psychopaths and we can see the differences in their brains and normal brains. We also have the evidence that when brain states are changed by drugs or physical damage, moral behavious change.

How can that be if morality is absolute?

They can never be anything except imaginations of other biological processes. Hence they are like every other imagination. Nonexistent
If not, then I must be true that I'm reality and I created everything. Is that true?

Sorry, that's just to crazy for me to talk to.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-14-2017 11:47 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-17-2017 5:49 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 268 of 1006 (799876)
02-17-2017 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Dawn Bertot
02-17-2017 5:49 AM


quote:
You are only witnessing changes in what you percieved as normal.

Correct. We witness changes in brain states and behaviour compared to normal brain states and behaviours.

quote:
a malfunctioning brain does not mean, immoral behavior, it just means a different biological process of a damaged biological function.

Which, as we saw with Fred, led to very immoral behaviour. We saw the before and after effects twice. How do you explain this?

quote:
The imaginations of a Socalled psychopath are no more real than yours. If they have an hallucination, is it real or not. If you said it was real you'd be the crazy one, correct?

I can't follow this, sorry. Imaginings of what?

quote:
I'll keep repeating this, and maybe one of you fellas will finally see it. If you want to characterize your FEELINGs or BEHAVIORS as morality, then you would be obligated show how and why, every persons thoughts or perceptions on ANY GIVEN POINT, Could all be correct or incorrect at the same time. If God did not exist, subjective morality, as you characterize it would be the height of stupidity, for any thinking person.

I can't follow this either. If you keep repeating it and no-one understands you, perhaps there's a problem with what you're saying?

quote:
It would mean given its components and tenets, as described by you fellas, nothing, not even what im saying, would have meaning. If everybody could have a differing opinion about something and it be valid as morality, the whole thing is idiocy. That's assuming idiocy could exist, in you fellas imaginations of morality. Wow, it ant believe you can't see that

And again.

quote:
You do not have a moral either way, objective or subjective. Hence, as I have clearly demonstrated, for morality to exist it has to be absolute. If it isnt, there it's nonsense

Yes we know you've asserted this but as you've read, no-one agrees with you. We are all saying that morality is very obviously not objective or absolute. We can demonstrate how and why this is an obvious truth by showing you how it changes between cultures and between times. It also changes with brain-state.

This is all demonstrably true - we can prove it quite easily and have done here.

So far you've not made any coherent argument or demonstrated why something that we see change can be absolute.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-17-2017 5:49 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-20-2017 6:48 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 285 of 1006 (800138)
02-20-2017 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Dawn Bertot
02-20-2017 6:48 AM


DB writes:

Ok I'll play along, which part of his behavior could be characterized as immoral. Show me the action in his actions

quote:
At the age of 40 his personality changes, he starts developing overt and inappropriate sexual tendancies. He starts looking at child porn. He gets kicked out by his wife for making sexual advances to young girls. He is finally prosecuted for a sex offence and put on the sex offender's register.

He also starts getting bad headaches and when he finally turns up at a hospital, they find an enormous tumour on his prefrontal cortex. They remove the tumour and his paedophilia is cured.

A couple of years later he starts having sexual problems again, he checks in to hospital, they find that the tumour has returned. They remove it, it cures the paedophilia. He's currently fine.


The hallucinations of a psychopath, are these actually real. Sense there is brain change, how do his alleged brain changes become immoral? How did you decide this

It's his behaviour that is real and that we call immoral, his brain state changes are seen on fMRI scans.

In your system of so called morality, literally ever person could have different perspective on any given point. Meaning the whole system itself becomes utter nonsesne.

Every person DOES have a different perspective on morality. That's why we're all saying it. Over and over. It also changes between cultures and over time. We absolutely know this.

The Nazis were either moral or immoral. If everyone gets a choice as to whether they were, yoursystem becomes nonsense. So would you tell me, we're the Nazis moral or immoral. What made thier actions immoral, if thier society thought it was perfectly acceptable.

You need to be specific. Were the Nazi's immoral when the created the holocaust? Yes, of course. In my subjective view - and in the vast majority of everyone else's view too. But not, it seems in Hitler's view.

Evolution changes from one state to another, time period to time period, that does not mean that it is moral or immoral. If your imaginations from a biological brain change from one time period, or people do things differently from generation to generation, this does not make it moral or immoral.

What's moral is what we decide as a society is moral at any point in time. It's developmental. Societies like individuals grow up and change. That's why we don't torture people anymore or keep slaves or make human sacrifices.

You still haven't excapted from your initial problem demonstrating it's more than some biological process. Why won't you provide an argument that shows that your imaginations are greater than, the entire process called existent, which is blind and without purpose. Death doesn't care about your so called morality. The only way from morality to exist is to have a absolute standard and something outside our imaginations, greater than those.

I'm afraid you've lapsed back into obscurity again. Morality IS a biological process. It's a brain state and an emotion like anger or love. It's called empathy and it's moderated by group learning. We learn how to behave morally from our parents and from society that's why it changes over time and across societies.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-20-2017 6:48 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-21-2017 5:19 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 299 of 1006 (800252)
02-21-2017 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Dawn Bertot
02-21-2017 5:19 AM


DB writes:

Interesting, so 50 years ago they were treating homosexuality as a mental disease, tumor or otherwise. So, in another 50 years or so when your so called presently moral society says that pedophilia is acceptable, or that sex with animals and marrying them is ok, will you describe them as having mental problems, moral or immoral. You do realize Tangle that there are people actually lobbying for it to be ok to have sex with children, presently, correct.

There are plenty of societies today that think that sex with children is fine and many more in the past. Like we say, morality changes.

But you sidestepped the point as usual. Fred's morality changed. He only developed an attraction for children - and other sexually inappropriate practices - when the tumour grew. When it was removed he lost those tendencies and when the tumour returned so did the immortal behaviour.

THAT is what you have to explain. Try to stick to answering that single point. How can morality be absolute if it changes?

quote:
Now do you see the stupidity of subjective morality.

Subjective morality is neither stupid nor clever it just is.

quote:
Ok I'll be more specific. If you thought he was wrong and he thought he was right who was right or wrong, actually. Or it doesn't matter, because it's all relative

He was wrong - obviously. I take it that you don't disagree so where is the problem? Hitler almost certainly believed what he was doing was moral. Probably in something like the same way that the USA thought it was moral to drop nuclear warheads on civilian cities. It does matter and it is all relative. How do we decide which of those acts are moral or not? Well the vast majority of us think that Hitler's acts were black and white wrong while Hiroshima and Nagasaki are more nuanced moral choices.

Show me the absolute - "thou shalt not kill?" Except.....

quote:
Let's try this again. You live in your mind in a purely naturalistic universe, IOWS no God.

If you must, yes.

quote:
Hence, all life is basically equal.

Nope.

quote:
For your so called ethics to make sense,, they would need to apply across the spectrum of species.

Nope

quote:
So you still do have slaves

Nope

quote:
and you sacrifice animals to eat them, correct?

Yup, your god made me an omnivore so I eat meat. (It's always amused me that your god made life competitive so that all of it has to eat everything else to survive - why do you think he did that?)

quote:
Further, if it's a moral at any point in time then, it was not murder in the 40s for the Nazis, but somehow it is now

This is unintelligible but I'll have a guess at answering the question you meant to ask. Our view of what is right and wrong changes over time. In other cultures marrying children is perfectly fine, in other times owning slaves was fine, even today barbaric practices such as FGM are seen as part of some societies culture. We believe differently here and now. We can only apply our version of morality in our culture today. It may be that in 1,000 years into the future society will look back on a lot of our practices and find them abhorrent. Think of how unequal our societies are, masses of poor and a few very wealthy.


Unfortunately, that is only part of what you might describe as morality. There is the other part that takes place outside the brain called reality. You may be able to experience things like love and anger, but then there are the questions of changing morality outside yourself correct. You know like the topics I discussed above.. so as we have seen morality can't be just what you decide in your mind or anybody else's mind. If it is its really nonexistent or imaginary.

Sorry, you've reverted to gibberish again.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-21-2017 5:19 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-22-2017 7:50 AM Tangle has responded

  
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