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Author Topic:   A very brief history of Human Life
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 59 (798649)
02-04-2017 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by RAZD
02-04-2017 8:05 AM


It's a human being at every stage of life
If you let the fetus develop on its own without interference it will become a baby. A baby will become a toddler, a toddler a child, a child an adult and so on. It's just a self-serving rationalization to think you can kill it at any stage and not be murdering a human being. If the fetus spontaneously aborts that's not murder; if the born human being dies of natural causes that is not murder either; but if you kill it at any stage that's murder, or whatever it should be called legally. It would also be murder to kill a person who couldn't live without mechanical help with breathing or kidney dialysis or anything like that. You are rationalizing murder by pretending it doesn't have all the stuff of a human being at every stage.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 02-04-2017 8:05 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Theodoric, posted 02-04-2017 11:17 AM Faith has responded
 Message 10 by RAZD, posted 02-04-2017 3:02 PM Faith has not yet responded
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 59 (798664)
02-04-2017 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Theodoric
02-04-2017 11:17 AM


Re: It's a human being at every stage of life
Oh nonsense. Straw man. The argument is that if you leave natural processes alone you'll either get a human being or nature will bring about miscarriage.

Other things such as mercy, assessment of possibility of recovery and so on, enter into decisions about life support. There are so many things that go into it that it's not possible to give a principle that covers them all. Even you wouldn't be in favor of removing life support in many cases.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 18 of 59 (798718)
02-05-2017 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Tangle
02-04-2017 4:25 PM


Re: It's a human being at every stage of life
I've always found that to be a very strange attitude, that you can know you are killing a child, so it is a very difficult decision that is hard to forget. I don't see how you could even do it at all if you really face the fact that it is a human being. I had an abortion at age twenty, then had a dream about a small child riding off in a hearse waving to me. I'd told myself it was just a bit of tissue, the standard rationalization then and now, and then I had that dream. It is hard to think about it now without crying.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Tangle, posted 02-04-2017 4:25 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Tangle, posted 02-05-2017 3:25 AM Faith has responded
 Message 25 by RAZD, posted 02-05-2017 7:48 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 59 (798727)
02-05-2017 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Tangle
02-05-2017 3:25 AM


Re: It's a human being at every stage of life
There is no moral contradiction in saving the life of an innocent unborn while approving of legally prescribed death for a criminal. Right to life can be forfeited after all, but the unborn baby has done nothing to forfeit it. The moral confusion exists on the side that would kill the innocent but preserve the life of the guilty.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 02-05-2017 4:16 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 23 by RAZD, posted 02-05-2017 7:20 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 02-05-2017 1:54 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 59 (798755)
02-05-2017 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by RAZD
02-05-2017 6:19 AM


Re: It's a human being at every stage of life
When that fertilized egg (zygote) never implants in the uterus it can never become a living breathing human.
When that fertilized egg (blastula) only develops into an empty sac it can never become a living breathing human.
At the other extreme, a fetus that is still-born can never become a living breathing human.
And the question is then what is a human. It is not a cell, or our bodies would be filled to overflowing with humans.

It's got all the stuff for making a human being already present. There's no need to get into all the definitional nitpicking, it WILL BE a human being if it develops naturally without interference. And of course it may not develop naturally, it may fail at many stages and never develop into a child. That's up to nature, and none of those possibilities justify killing it. It doesn't matter what you call it at any stage, it's got all the stuff for developing into a human being, so if you kill it at any stage you are ending the life of that human being. I think this is instinctively understood by everybody but it's suppressed by all this rationalization and nitpicking that propagandizes women into killing their children.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by RAZD, posted 02-05-2017 6:19 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by RAZD, posted 02-05-2017 3:26 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 59 (798757)
02-05-2017 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by RAZD
02-05-2017 7:48 AM


Re: What is and isn't pro-life
I don't suppose you'd care to require that marriage be emphasized as the healthy happy envionrment that children should grow up in, and put a lot of energy into the cultural critique of free sex and fatherless children and solutions to it. That's a direction I think we should go, not just for the sake of the mother and child, but for the sake of society.

Beyond that, pro-life counseling is often denounced and prevented by the pro-abortion people. What it does, however, is counsel women with unwanted pregnancies about how it really is a human being, and encourages them to bring it to term, and offers all kinds of helps to make it easier on them, including free medical help and housing in the many living situations provided by churches for those who need it. There they may get help with the pregnancy and yes general health information and aid, with completing their education, with getting a job, with getting funding, with making the decision about keeping the child or putting it up for adoption, sometimes with reconciling the woman with the baby's father if that's at all possible. These ministries are all over the country.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by RAZD, posted 02-05-2017 7:48 AM RAZD has responded

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Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 59 (798760)
02-05-2017 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Theodoric
02-05-2017 7:45 AM


Re: It's a human being at every stage of life
But that is not what Faith and the forces birthers argue. That unimplanted zygote is as much a person as you and I.

Oh nonsense. Nobody is saying that. For instance, wherever the mother's life is threatened by the pregnancy her life is put above the fetus' life. That is a very rare occurrence but the priority is clear that the developing child is not the same thing as a living person.

What I'm arguing is that it will become that if you leave it alone. There is no legal status involved, it's just the recognition that killing it will end a human life that inevitably would have been under normal circumstances. You all take this simple point to straw man extremes.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Theodoric, posted 02-05-2017 7:45 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 30 of 59 (798782)
02-05-2017 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
02-05-2017 1:54 PM


Re: It's a human being at every stage of life
No.

Duh.

Read it all.

Duh.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 02-05-2017 1:54 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 02-05-2017 2:03 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 59 (798791)
02-05-2017 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by ringo
02-05-2017 2:03 PM


Re: It's a human being at every stage of life
....

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 02-05-2017 2:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by ringo, posted 02-05-2017 2:34 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 34 of 59 (798793)
02-05-2017 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by ringo
02-05-2017 2:34 PM


Re: It's a human being at every stage of life
Yes it's just word games. EvC posts are almost nothing else. Your irrelevant one-liners that aren't based on reading much of what I said are a pain in the neck.

I'm not stuck on the word "murder," I mean KILLING A HUMAN BEING in a formative stage, and murder is the usual term for ending a human life; and I clearly said in a recent post that I put the mother's life above the child's. I'm also not stuck on "human being" I've said many times I'm talking about the inevitability of its becoming a human being so that if you kiil it you are ending a human life.

I'm not for prosecuting anybody at this point, and certainly not the mother who doesn't usually know what she's doing and often sorely regrets it when she knows. Stop projecting stuff on me. I said what I meant given the limits of language. Nitpicking pedantry is a stu/pid word game. Try reading in context.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 33 by ringo, posted 02-05-2017 2:34 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 59 (798806)
02-05-2017 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Tangle
02-05-2017 3:00 PM


Re: It's a human being at every stage of life
I think people who make stu/pid straw man arguments ought to be executed by firing squad.

There.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Tangle, posted 02-05-2017 3:00 PM Tangle has responded

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Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 59 (798821)
02-05-2017 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by RAZD
02-05-2017 3:26 PM


Re: It's a human being at every stage of life
Nothing that occurs in the natural course of pregnancy justifies killing the developing baby, so there's no point in going on and on about those natural processes. If they lead to miscarriage that's not murder.

I already said the mother's life is more important than the baby's. A threat to her life or health is really the only justification for terminating a pregnancy. Deformities of the child are not a reason to my mind.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by RAZD, posted 02-05-2017 3:26 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by RAZD, posted 02-06-2017 8:34 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 43 of 59 (798878)
02-06-2017 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by RAZD
02-06-2017 8:34 AM


Re: when does personhood begin revisited
I don't think it's relevant when something you would define as "personhood" begins, since the point I've been arguing is that if you leave it alone at any stage it will inevitably become a person, barring the effect of abnormal processes.

I also have a problem based on this reasoning, with any abortifacient or contraceptive that interferes after egg and sperm have combined, because all the genetic material is there for the making of the human being. I might be forced to make an exception for it just because it's popular and not gruesome like abortion, but logically I'm against the exception.

I expect to meet my own child in heaven, the one that I aborted when I was twenty, which was done at the age of about seven weeks. If the fertilized ovum is also a child IN GOD'S EYES, then there are going to be a lot of children meeting their Christian parents in heaven. I don't know of course. There may be an early stage of purely physical formation before the soul is infused by God. Nobody knows that. I rather think if the genetic material is all there, then it's the person in the making already. BUT, again, since we can't know that, I suppose I have to make the exception for the earliest stages.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by RAZD, posted 02-06-2017 8:34 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2017 9:16 AM Faith has responded
 Message 46 by RAZD, posted 02-06-2017 12:03 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 02-06-2017 12:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 59 (798880)
02-06-2017 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Theodoric
02-06-2017 9:16 AM


Re: when does personhood begin revisited
OK.
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 Message 44 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2017 9:16 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 49 of 59 (799982)
02-18-2017 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by RAZD
02-18-2017 6:18 PM


Re: News from the courts
Only a perverted legal system could call the murder of an unborn child a "choice" to be made, a "medical decision" when there is no medical issue involved, or a "right." But I guess when you believe that morality was evolved by natural processes you can justify any heinous crime.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by RAZD, posted 02-18-2017 6:18 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 02-18-2017 6:35 PM Faith has responded
 Message 54 by RAZD, posted 02-19-2017 1:53 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
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