quote:Oh for crying out loud. The sexes are different from each other.
And exactly how is that an issue of going to the bathroom?
Is there something you're trying to tell us, Faith? Are you one of those sexual perverts who looks at the genitalia of other people in the bathroom? Because last time I checked, there were privacy devices in bathrooms to prevent that. You would have to go out of your way to actually see another person's genitalia in a bathroom.
The stalls have doors and walls for a reason.
There are partitions between the urinals for a reason.
So since you seem to have first hand experience of seeing other people's genitalia when in the bathroom, what on earth were you doing? How did you manage to not get arrested?
Remember: More Republican congresscritters have been arrested for sex crimes in bathrooms than transgender people have.
And since you seem to think it's so cut-and-dried, let me ask for your sage advice:
An XY individual with testosterone resistance wants to go to the bathroom. The gonads are differentiated testicles, but they are internal to the body. The external genitalia is of a vagina, but there is no uterus or cervix and the vagina ends blindly because of this. There is some breast growth.
Where does this person go to the bathroom? The person is chromosomally male. Any genetic test would indicate male. But, this person has no external sign of being male.
Oh, wait...I realize I made an assumption: I assumed that you would allow this person to go to a public restroom at all.
This person is now forced to use the women's bathroom:
This 14-year-old is now forced to use the men's bathroom:
Why do you want that little girl in the men's room, Faith?
quote:It's natural and it's civilized to separate the sexes in bathrooms.
Assuming that, one has to wonder why you want to force women into the men's room.
Remember: A trans woman is a woman. Therefore, she belongs in the women's bathroom.
But you want to forcer her into the men's room.
All because you have an obsession with her genitalia which you seem to be admitting you go out of your way to see when in the bathroom.
Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
quote:What I want is an admission that the LGBTQ agenda to change bathroom use has serious problems that need to be addressed.
That would be a lie, Faith, and we mustn't tell lies.
On two levels:
1) There is no "agenda to change bathroom use." Men use the men's room. Women use the women's room.
See, I want this person to use the men's room:
You, however, what him to use the women's room. Why do you want that man in the women's room, Faith?
I want this 14-year-old to use the women's room:
You, however, what her to use the men's room. Why do you want that little girl in the men's room, Faith?
2) There is no problem. Your sick, perverted desire to see the genitalia of other people who are simply trying to use the bathroom is not going to be accommodated no matter how much you beg.
That, however, is something that needs to be addressed: Why are you fixated on the genitalia of other people, Faith? Why do you think you get to look at other people's genitalia when they're in the bathroom? That you're nervous is not a reason.
Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
quote:What a screaming lie. That is not what he did and you know it.
What a screaming lie. That is precisely what he did and you know it.
We have him on tape, Faith. Wait...you're about to claim that this video was hacked, right? That he didn't really say the things he said?
Trump's very first campaign speech was to call Mexicans rapists and drug dealers.
And that flies in the face of reality.
quote:The problem isn't people, as I've said many times, it's the IDEOLOGY.
And the ideology of white, Christian males is bloody, violent, and bigoted. It's why the most common terrorist in the United States is a conservative, white, Christian male.
Your IDEOLOGY is what radicalizes them into shooting up Jewish centers, planting bombs at the Olympics, blowing up buildings, assassinating doctors who perform abortion, etc.
Like a typical fool, to you everything is about the other, like about race, and you project your paranoia on everybody else and you can't think about ideas or merit that differs from your own, which is what it is really all about. But, perhaps you're just very stupid and never received any education in the universities...or anywhere else.
You are the problem, Faith.
Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
quote:There is no problem, as far as I know, if someone can pass for the sex that belongs in the bathroom of choice. Duh.
Who determines what "passes," Faith?
Because of the laws that have been created, cis-women have been subject to harassment and arrest for using the women's room.
We've been through this already, Faith. You know the drill. Here's the response I gave you the last time you brought it up (Message 34):
why do you need a law to give them permission to use the restroom of their choice?
Because all it takes is for some busybody to cause trouble and suddenly you're being arrested. This is already happening to cis women who have butch haircuts and don't wear traditionally feminine clothing.
If we don't explicitly protect trans people, they will be subject to discrimination. It would be lovely if we could all just behave like adults and not harass our fellows, but the simple reality is that there will always be people who want to make life difficult for those they don't like.
No, laws won't stop all the problems. We have laws preventing discrimination on the basis of things like race, gender, and religion, and yet those who aren't white, those who aren't male, and those who aren't Christian still get discriminated against. The laws simply allow there to be redress for when it happens (and yes, that means white, male Christians can be discriminated against and also have a means of redress when it happens.)
Now, you're going to say you didn't see it. And since you didn't reply, I'm sure you think you didn't see it. But that simply means that, once again, you didn't do your homework and got burned.
Women are being harassed and subject to arrest for using the women's room, Faith, because fools like you seem to think you can determine who "passes" and who doesn't.
Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
quote:The mother reported it on some website I saw. It's not imaginary.
Given the web sites you claim to visit, that is proof positive that it's imaginary.
Names, Faith, or it didn't happen.
Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
quote:I've been puzzled from the beginning why if people look like they fit in there should be a problem at all.
I've asked you this question multiple times, Faith.
You've never answered it. Let's see if you can do it this time:
Who determines who "fits in"?
You?
Why are you the standard?
Given that we have many instances of cis women being harassed and arrested for using the women's bathroom because some other person didn't think she "fit in," how do you plan to manage this standard of "fitting in"?
Especially since, for trans people, there is a well-documented history of bigots causing trouble for them including outing them in the bathroom.
Remember: There has *NEVER* been a case of a trans person being arrested in the bathroom for sex crimes. Instead, trans people are usually the victim of crimes against them.
Who determines who "fits in"?
And what will you do when you are declared the person who doesn't "fit in"?
Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
quote:Seems obvious enough to me that the person fitting in determines it.
That's not an answer, Faith.
Someone walks into a restroom. You think the person doesn't "fit in." I do.
When you call the police, do they listen to you or to me?
Or do they haul you away for harassing a person who was simply using the bathroom?
quote:IF nobody objects then they've fit in.
Why do you get to object? Who is the arbiter of whether or not they "fit in"?
Remember, Faith, cis women have been harassed and arrested for using the women's bathroom. Are you suggesting that they should have know that they wouldn't "fit in" and thus used the men's room? What happens if someone in the men's room thinks they don't "fit in" there? So now where is this person supposed to go?
All it takes is for some busybody to cause trouble and suddenly you're being arrested. This is already happening to cis women who have butch haircuts and don't wear traditionally feminine clothing.
If we don't explicitly protect trans people, they will be subject to discrimination. It would be lovely if we could all just behave like adults and not harass our fellows, but the simple reality is that there will always be people who want to make life difficult for those they don't like.
No, laws won't stop all the problems. We have laws preventing discrimination on the basis of things like race, gender, and religion, and yet those who aren't white, those who aren't male, and those who aren't Christian still get discriminated against. The laws simply allow there to be redress for when it happens (and yes, that means white, male Christians can be discriminated against and also have a means of redress when it happens.)
Why do you think you get to tell someone else that they don't "fit in"?
quote:That's why I wonder why there's a problem at all.
If there's no problem, why are you supporting laws that will do nothing but cause problems?
quote:If they don't fit in I suppose that would be other people determining it by freaking out about it.
But you have demonstrated that you will "freak out" for no reason. So why should we listen to you?
Remember, Faith, cis women have been harassed and arrested for using the women's room because some busybody "freaked out" and called the cops on them.
If you are worried about someone in the bathroom, then it is your burden to not go in there. After all, they're just peeing. You're the one obsessing about their genitalia and inventing scenarios that lead you to "freak out."
Remember, Faith, there have been *ZERO* incidents of a trans person being arrested for a sex crime in a public restroom.
Compare that to the multiple arrests of GOP congresscritters for sex crimes in the bathroom.
The risk of a trans person in the bathroom is that someone like you will "freak out" and violently attack them.
But you want to protect the bully. You want to protect the criminal.
Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
quote:As I thought I understood it from what was being said here, people fitting in had been going on for decades.
And for as many decades, trans people have been discriminated against, harassed, and arrested for using the bathroom that matches their gender.
I keep asking you this question and you keep refusing to answer it:
Who decides who "fits in"?
You?
Why do you get to be the arbiter?
quote:That being the case I can't see why any adjustment in the laws was needed.
Because trans people were being arrested for using the correct bathroom because people like you would "freak out."
quote:The first thing I heard about all this was that the mayor of Houston was putting a law in place to open public restrooms to transgender people. If people had been fitting in for decades why was this necessary?
You do realize that those two sentences contradict each other and give the lie to your claim that you don't actually think trans people should be stopped from using the correct bathroom.
First clue: "open public restrooms to transgender people."
That makes it sound like trans people weren't allowed to use the bathroom. No, trans people were always using the bathroom. And so long as people like you didn't "freak out," there was no problem.
However, people like you did "freak out" and call the cops and trans people were routinely arrested for using the correct bathroom.
So Houston passed a law that protected trans people in their right to use the correct bathroom. Actually, to be accurate, that isn't what HERO did directly. Instead, the Houston Equal Rights Ordinance simply prevented discrimination on the bases of sex, race, color, ethnicity, national origin, age, familial status, marital status, military status, religion, disability, sexual orientation, genetic information, gender identity, or pregnancy.
It applied to businesses that serve the public, private employers, housing, city employment and city contracting. Religious institutions would be considered exempt as would private clubs. Violators could be fined up to $5,000.
You will note that there is no mention of bathrooms in the ordinance. However, because discrimination against people on the basis of gender identity was outlawed, that means that trans people cannot be arrested for using the correct bathroom.
Which is what was happening.
So tell us what your solution is, Faith. A person goes into the bathroom. You "freak out" and call the cops because you don't think they "fit in," but I do. The cops show up. What happens next if...
1) ...there is no law providing guidance on the rights of people based on gender identity? 2) ...there is a law outlawing discrimination on the basis of gender identity? 3) ...there is a law mandating discrimination on the basis of gender identity?
As we have already seen, the first case results in trans people being arrested. Not all, but many as it will depend upon the whim of the police officer.
In the second case, the trans person is not arrested because they are protected from discrimination simply because they used the correct bathroom.
In the third case, the trans person is required to be arrested for using the correct bathroom.
So what is your solution, Faith? Should a trans person be arrested for using the correct bathroom?
What does your "freak out" status have to do with anything? Why does your mental state get to infringe upon the rights of others?
Do trans people have the right to use public bathrooms?
Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
Are you incapable of doing your own homework? Wait...that would mean looking at references that weren't Fox/Breitbart/Infowars/Stormfront, so that means no.
HERO was passed in the summer of 2014.
There was then a referendum in November of 2015 to rescind it.
quote:So nothing should have changed about people being able to fit into whatever bathroom they prefer, no?
No. Texas has no laws protecting people from discrimination on the basis of gender identity. The bigger cities in Texas do (San Antonio, Dallas, Austin, Fort Worth, and Plano, to name a few...Dallas, Austin, and Fort Worth for more than a decade) and Houston decided to follow suit.
People like you then "freaked out" that protecting people from discrimination on the basis of gender identity would mean that trans people could no longer be arrested for using the correct bathroom when they "freaked out."
So what's your solution, Faith? A person goes into the bathroom (after all, you have no way to know if they are trans or cis) and you "freak out" and call the cops. What should happen next?
1) If there is no law regarding protection on the basis of gender identity, what does the cop do? 2) If there is a law outlawing discrimination on the basis of gender identity, what does the cop do? 3) If there is a law mandating discrimination on the basis of gender identity, what does the cop do?
Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
quote:It isn't women and children who are flooding Europe, it's young men.
You still haven't answered my question, Faith:
What percentage of the population of Europe (assume the European Union) is Muslim?
You keep using that word, "flood."
I do not think it means what you think it means.
Remember, Faith, Sweden's crime rates have been flat since 2005...years before they started taking in refugees...the most of any country per capita. More than 15% of Sweden's population is foreign born.
Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
quote:But nobody has ever told gays they can't patronize a Christian business
Oh, yes, they have. People have been kicked out of businesses simply because the owners thought they were gay. They have been refused service because the owners thought they were gay.
That's the entire point behind anti-discrimination law, Faith.
Question: If your religion prevented you from "validating interracial marriage," would you be allowed to deny your services to an interracial couple?
quote:What Chrsitians cannot do is validate gay marriage, period.
Huh? Unless you're a priest performing a sacrament for the couple, exactly how does a person "validate" anybody's marriage?
Are you confusing providing a service to a couple that will be used in their marriage with "validating" it?
I don't think you understand what that word means.
quote:THAT's the only thing Christians can't do for gays , and for which they are asked to get it elsewhere.
Of course, but that doesn't let the business off the hook.
If you go to a restaurant and they serve you spoiled food, you certainly don't eat it. You don't pay for it. You leave and go somewhere else.
And you still call the health inspector and have them take action against the restaurant because they are not allowed to serve spoiled food.
And they don't get to claim that their religious proclivities override the public safety laws regarding food preparation and service.
So what makes you think that if a business that violates anti-discrimination laws gets to claim that their religious proclivities override the human rights of other people?
It's really simple, Faith: If you open your business to the public, you are required to comply with all regulations for running a business and that includes the anti-discrimination laws. If you open your business to the public, you don't get to complain when the public shows up. If you cannot handle the idea of performing your services for the public, then you shouldn't have opened your business to the public. Instead, you should have remained a private contractor.
Suppose you want to get your picture taken. You could go to Glamour Shots in the mall. They must take your picture. They are open to the public and they cannot deny you because of your religion. Remember, Faith, religion is one of the categories protected under anti-discrimination law.
You could also try getting Anne Geddes to take your picture. She's a famous photographer. But, she can tell you no. Unlike Glamour Shots, she's not a public business but is, instead, a private contractor. She doesn't have to take your picture if she doesn't want to.
quote:There are also gays who agree with this.
And there were slaves who didn't think there was a problem. Does that make slavery OK? There are any number of women who stay with their abusive husbands. Does that make their beatings OK?
Should I be allowed to refuse you service based on your religion, Faith? Your race? Your sex? Your veteran status? Your disability?
No?
Then why do I get to do it based off your sexual orientation?
Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
quote:"Take your business elsewhere" is the only response we need to this perceived discrimination.
So when trans people are arrested for using the correct bathroom, they're hallucinating it? They weren't actually arrested? They simply hyperventilated the cops coming in?
Strange how "take your business elsewhere" was declared unconstitutional. Are you saying we should do away with anti-discrimination law? You *do* have the right to deny people on the basis of race, sex, religion, marital status, veteran status, etc.?
Woolworth's was justified in their refusal to serve black people at the lunch counter?
quote:Capitalists don't care about your religion or skin color, they just want your money.
Strange how all those capitalists seemed to think that the money of Jews and blacks wasn't any good.
So we seem to have a problem: You think the world is populated with these automatons known as "capitalists," but that seems to conflict with the reality that the world is instead populated by things known as "humans" and they are known to be bigots.
So what do we as a society do with that fact? Do we simply shrug our shoulders and say, "Tough"? Too bad if you're black or Jewish or gay or a woman. You need to find the mythical city of "Capitalism" that will stop discriminating against you. Of course, that doesn't address all the other places in life that are infected with bigotry such as the law, employment, housing, education, etc., but at least you can know that in "Capitalism," you're money will be good.
Assuming you have any. The income inequality in "Capitalism" is quite disastrous, you know. You won't be one of the ones making any money there, after all.
You go to a restaurant. They served you spoiled food. You certainly don't eat it. You don't pay for it. You leave and you go somewhere else.
And you still call the health department. The restaurant is not allowed to serve spoiled food due to the regulations on food preparation and service. That's the contract that you signed by opening a restaurant. You don't get to claim, "They can go somewhere else," as a defense.
So when you are denied service in violation of anti-discrimination laws, you go somewhere else.
And you still call the business regulatory agency. The business is not allowed to discriminate due to the anti-discrimination laws. That's the contract that you signed by opening a business. You don't get to claim, "They can go somewhere else," as a defense.
Your bigotry is showing.
Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
quote:all I ever had in mind was the effect of the legalization of gay marriage, which has had devastating effects on some Chrristian businesses.
If you cannot live up to the regulations required of all businesses, you have no business being in business.
If you are uncomfortable with the requirement that you cannot discriminate against people on the basis of sexual orientation, then you need to find some other line of work.
Or are you saying that anti-discrimination regulations are a bad thing? Businesses should be able to deny you on the basis of your sex, race, religion, veteran status?
quote:No, it's on the basis of what God says
And god says that black people are to be slaves.
That's what your Bible says, Faith. So was the Civil War won by the wrong side?
Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
quote:The point remains: Christian businesses do not refuse gays because they are gay, they only refuse to do anything to validate a gay marriage.
The latter is inextricably linked to the former. Therefore, the claim that it "isn't because they are gay" is trivially proven false.
Again, how does one "validate" a marriage if you aren't the one performing the sacrament?
Are you confusing providing a service to a couple that will be used in their marriage with "validating" it?
I don't think you understand what that word means.
A baker bakes cakes. They aren't a participant in the marriage. That is reserved solely for the two people getting married. Thus, them buying a cake that they will eat after they go through a ceremony isn't "validating" the marriage anymore than you selling a gun to someone who then uses it in a crime is you "validating" their criminality or you selling a car to someone who then drives drunk is "validating" their drunkenness.
If you go to a restaurant and they serve you spoiled food, you certainly don't eat it. You don't pay for it. You leave and go somewhere else.
And you still call the health inspector and have them take action against the restaurant because they are not allowed to serve spoiled food.
And they don't get to claim that their religious proclivities override the public safety laws regarding food preparation and service.
So what makes you think that if a business that violates anti-discrimination laws gets to claim that their religious proclivities override the human rights of other people?
It's really simple, Faith: If you open your business to the public, you are required to comply with all regulations for running a business and that includes the anti-discrimination laws. If you open your business to the public, you don't get to complain when the public shows up. If you cannot handle the idea of performing your services for the public, then you shouldn't have opened your business to the public. Instead, you should have remained a private contractor.
Suppose you want to get your picture taken. You could go to Glamour Shots in the mall. They must take your picture. They are open to the public and they cannot deny you because of your religion. Remember, Faith, religion is one of the categories protected under anti-discrimination law.
You could also try getting Anne Geddes to take your picture. She's a famous photographer. But, she can tell you no. Unlike Glamour Shots, she's not a public business but is, instead, a private contractor. She doesn't have to take your picture if she doesn't want to.
If your religious proclivities prevent you from providing your services to gay couples who might use your product as a way of feeling good about their marriage, then you are free to find some other line of work.
Do your religious proclivities allow you to deny interracial couples? Would you be "validating" "race-mixing" by doing so?
Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
quote:Doesn't a business have a right to refuse service for whatever reason they want?
No.
That's precisely the point behind anti-discrimination laws. Businesses do *NOT* have the right to refuse service for whatever reason they want. That little sign, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone," isn't exactly true. They don't have that right.
They cannot refuse you service because you're black.
Or a woman.
Or Jewish.
Or a veteran.
And in many jurisdictions, gay.
If you are uncomfortable with that requirement, you are free to look for another line of work.
Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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