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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20034
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 1207 of 1484 (835624)
06-26-2018 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
03-12-2017 7:23 AM


Belief vs Reality
Gay Marriage Reality as an attack on (Fundamentalist) Christianity

or

Fundamentalist Christianity as an attack on Gay Marriage

either way I fixed it for you.

Gays exist. Always have, always will. There are many observed instances of gay animals: it is natural.

That's reality.

Gay Marriage is legal. That's a fact. That means that a majority of people are in favor of it, including many (non-fundamentalist) Christians.

(Fundamentalist) Christianity doesn't get to impose mere beliefs on people, especially when those beliefs are not founded on facts.

Fundamentalist Christianity wanting to impose those beliefs on other people is an attack on those people, some of which are Christians that don't hold such beliefs.

That's reality.

It is as much of "an attack on Christianity" as the age of the earth -- as shown by multiple avenues of evidence -- is WAY OLDER than 6,000 years {like over 4 billion years old}. There are many (non-fundamentalist) Christians that have no problems with the age of the earth.

You do not get to include all Christians in your argument unless you reflect the beliefs of all Christians.

When you say

... Are you unaware that we were a Christian society up until very recently, ...

You are using non-fundamentalist Christians and their beliefs, people that still overwhelmingly dominate the American social landscape. The US is no less Christian socially than in the days of the founders.

This

Now that the west is regressing to paganism we have increasingly pagan laws ...

is just you being absurd. There are no laws forcing or enforcing pagan beliefs on people that I am aware of. Can you cite any?

The US, by the Constitution, is a secular government, and what we have are secular laws, laws that show no preference for any religion. ( ... and those that do show a preference are in violation of the US Constitution)

quote:
U.S. Constitution
Article VI

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


underline for emphasis.

The US government has always been a secular government. Under the constitution no religion is given preference and all beliefs are respected, equally.

Again, gay marriage is legal. If you don't believe gay marriage should happen, don't have one. But if you refuse to bake a cake or provide flowers for a gay marriage, that is you using your religion to attack people that do not hold your beliefs. Not the other way around.

There have always been people that don't hold your beliefs, and their always will be.

That's reality.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 7:23 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1210 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 8:31 AM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20034
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 1220 of 1484 (835637)
06-26-2018 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1210 by Faith
06-26-2018 8:31 AM


Re: Belief vs Reality
... ll you say may be true but what that means is that Christians will not obey the law because it contradicts God's Law. We will either find ways to avoid it or if we can't and are met by it head-on we will have to suffer the consequences. ...

What you mean is that it contradicts your beliefs. As noted before, not all Christians hold this belief, only fundamentalist Christians, and your continued use of the part for the whole is a logical fallacy.

Curiously, what you say is true for everyone -such as protesters and people of other faiths - that they have the right to disobey the law if it contradicts their beliefs. If you believe the law is wrong you have the right to protest and and petition the government to change it. That doesn't make you special, just someone at odds with the law. This is also part of amendment 1.

... That's the Reality, RAZD. That isn't exactly freedom of religion. But I don't think society cares about freedom of religion any more. Oh maybe for Muslims and Satanists.

Wrong.

The Reality is that if the law applies equally to Christians, Muslims and Satanists, then that is, by definition, freedom of religion. Freedom of religion does not apply just to Christianity, it applies to all beliefs - equally.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1210 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 8:31 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1221 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 12:02 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20034
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 1224 of 1484 (835641)
06-26-2018 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1221 by Faith
06-26-2018 12:02 PM


Re: Belief vs Reality
... Unless the Supreme Court decides to protect Christian wedding-related businesses from being sued and prosecuted for refusing to serve gay weddings ...

Which would be a law that established a federal religion over other religions and beliefs. Last time I checked that is unconstitutional.

... As I said, some freedom of religion. ...

You
just
don't
get
it:

You have just as much freedom of religion as everybody else, regardless of belief. No more, no less. The fact that you feel entitled to more than other beliefs is your problem (check your privilege), because you aren't.

... because it's this particular Christian branch that's going to suffer because we oppose gay marriage on biblical grounds and won't compromise. ...

Based on some very small-minded interpretations in a fundamentalist sect, yes, and that makes it your problem, not anyone else's.

You created the problem by trying to impose your silly beliefs on other people (here gay people), and then you cry and moan that you are being persecuted and attacked for your beliefs when you are stopped. Wacko.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1221 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 12:02 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1225 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 7:28 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20034
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 1228 of 1484 (835753)
06-30-2018 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1225 by Faith
06-26-2018 7:28 PM


Re: Belief vs Reality
Oh I get what you are saying, but you're just wrong.

Religious Freedom does not give you the right to make up restrictions for other people, it gives you the right to practice your religion at home, places of worship, etcetera. Bakers and florists that provide services to the general public need to abide by established laws regarding discrimination against minorities etc. Doing otherwise makes those laws pointless.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1225 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 7:28 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1229 by Faith, posted 06-30-2018 11:57 AM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20034
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 1234 of 1484 (835781)
07-01-2018 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1229 by Faith
06-30-2018 11:57 AM


Re: Belief vs Reality
... So again, Christians ...

Again, the fallacy of the part for the whole -- you mean the sect of fundamentalist Christians, not all Christians, especially as you only speak for yourself.

... will no longer be able to run wedding businesses ...

That is one choice that you can make.

... if we are put in the position of being required to endorse gay marriage in any other way we will have to take the punishment.

Or any other law against discrimination ...

That is another choice you can make, as can any person who disagrees with any law.

Another choice is to protest the law and organize to change it. Notice how this was in fact done to overcome laws of discrimination, such as women's right to vote, civil rights and gay rights.

Notice how you are advocating going backwards while the majority of the people have already moved forward, including many Christians. People who think it is proper to treat everyone equally, that nobody has a privilege to discriminate and treat one person differently from another.

That's means you're not so much being conservative, as being regressive bigot.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1229 by Faith, posted 06-30-2018 11:57 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
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