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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7022
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 41 of 1484 (802134)
03-12-2017 12:46 PM


The deluded so-called Christians who won't bake cakes for homosexuals weddings are obviously wrong but it does irritate me that they can't simply say that they can't because the cook is not feeling too well, they've got too many orders, the oven is broken, whatever. Why make it a 'thing'? Do they actually want to feel martyred?

Similarly, why ask a right-wing fundamentalist jerk-off to bake you a cake if you're queer? Some people are just looking for a fight.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Modulous, posted 03-12-2017 1:11 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 3:21 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7022
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 62 of 1484 (802158)
03-12-2017 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
03-12-2017 3:21 PM


Re: related issues
Faith writes:


Also, what IS this arrogant insistence that a Christian is "wrong" about such a decision?

That would be because they *are* wrong Faith. And, by the way, it's only a few of those people that call themselves Christians - but quite plainly aren't - that concern themselves about such trivial things and blow them up into iconic, preposterous proportions.

You think they LIKE turning people away? I can assure you they do not. It was kind of an agony for the Oregon bakery couple who don't have an anti-gay bone in their bodies. For them and the others it's strictly a matter of obedience to God.

I don't know them or know their story, but they're a business - this is just another pain in the arse regulation you have to deal with pragmatically. You put policies in place for such things.

One more thing. It should be mentioned that Muslim bakeries are either not targeted for wedding cakes by gay couples, or turn them away without being sued. They will not make a wedding cake for gays either, so why are they exempt from the consequences of discriminating against them?

They're not exempt. Neither am I.

I've never seen a Muslim cake-baker though have you. You know you're obsessing about Muslims don't you?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 3:21 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 5:05 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7022
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 67 of 1484 (802164)
03-12-2017 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
03-12-2017 5:05 PM


Re: related issues
Faith writes:

There are in fact Muslim bakeries and someone went into one with a hidden camera and asked for a wedding cake for him and his male partner and the owner said he wouldn't do it. The would be customer finally had to get specific that this was for a gay wedding so that the refusal was clearly a refusal for that reason.

And you suspect another conspiracy I suppose.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 5:05 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 5:20 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7022
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 73 of 1484 (802170)
03-12-2017 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
03-12-2017 5:20 PM


Re: related issues
Faith writes:

I think it's possible that Christian businesses are specifically targeted, yes.

Possibly. There are activist gays that think that they can make progress by outing law breaking bigots. Personally, I think they are doing more harm than good. And, they've won, so celebrate and let the bigots die out naturally.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 5:20 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Rrhain, posted 03-13-2017 6:11 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7022
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 121 of 1484 (802248)
03-14-2017 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Rrhain
03-13-2017 6:11 PM


Re: related issues
Rrhain writes:

So the bus strike, the lunch counter sit-ins, Rosa Parks, all of that was counter-productive? If you're just nice and wait for the bigots to do the right thing, they'll do so?

Campaign hard until you win the main battle, then calm down dear.

The real bigots won't change, you need the hearts and minds of the average guy to change to actually make the difference. You only way to do that is to become the norm - nice, ordinary and everyday. Nothing to see here.

You really think gay people have "won"?

Yes. Well at least here in the UK - can't really speak for the USA but it seems to me that they have what they wanted now enshrined in law. While there are still battles to be won, it seems a better tactic to me to fight those specific battles not bugger about with cakes and bakers.

What exactly do you think it was that was "won"?

See above.

It's been 150 years since the end of the Civil War. Surely racism has ended because all the bigots died off, right?

The battle against racism is being won but it takes time and perseverance to change the majority mind. It's a matter of tactics what approach you take to do that but misplaced activism may do more harm than good.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Rrhain, posted 03-13-2017 6:11 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Rrhain, posted 03-14-2017 5:15 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 171 by Modulous, posted 03-14-2017 7:52 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7022
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 129 of 1484 (802257)
03-14-2017 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Rrhain
03-14-2017 5:15 AM


Re: related issues
R writes:

You do realize that in more than half the US, the right to get married means the right to get fired, lose your housing, be denied education, etc., yes? Most of the country provides no protections against discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. So if you get married, your boss is perfectly free to then fire you since you just came out.

I do realise that US employment law is totally fucked. I remember being shocked that my colleagues in MCI didn't even have contracts and could be fired at any time without reason. This isn't a gay issue, it's almost a human rights issue. Everyone should be on the streets for that.

And they will never change until they are confronted.

Wrong. Bigots remain bigots. Society changes around them and it takes generations. See Faith.

Completely wrong.

"Nothing to see" means you're not seen. And when you're not seen, nobody cares when you are trampled upon.

Completly wrong. I guess we differ.

When things become the norm it's a good thing. When everybody has the same rights and obligations and are seen as just another citizen, the problem has been solved.

There's planty of real campaigns to be fought by whatever means without taking principled stands against bigots that just make them look petty and unnecessarily aggressive.

Oh? There's still no marriage equality in Northern Ireland.

No but there is now for the rest of the UK thanks to long campaigning and a liberalising force across Northern Europe generally - now comes the backlash of course. NI is backward in many areas having suffered for generations a religious war - the poor women of NI have to come to England for they abortions. Rediculous.

But slavery is over. We "won the main battle" so now we "calm down," right? I mean, there are laws preventing discrimination so we can "calm down," right? Why should anybody who is rejected from a hotel for being black put up a fight since the "main battle" of getting the anti-discrimination laws were won? Blacks should "become the norm - nice, ordinary, and everyday," making sure there's "nothing to see here" by daring to demand that those laws be enforced.

Now you're just being rediculous. At least here in the UK it's now impossible to ban anybody from a hotel based on their colour. And of course if a hotel attempted to do that they'd find themselves in a lot of trouble and they'd suffer very publicly for it. It has become the norm not to discriminate in this way. This is a good thing.

I'm not saying stop fighting for equality, I'm saying pick the battles and make sure they matter. Artificially targetting bigots on trivial issues doesn't help the cause.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Rrhain, posted 03-14-2017 5:15 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Rrhain, posted 03-14-2017 8:42 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7022
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 136 of 1484 (802267)
03-14-2017 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Rrhain
03-14-2017 8:42 AM


Re: related issues
Rrhain writes:

an awful lot of stuff which seems intended only to aggressively miss the point

I'm not going through that lot again - you must have got the point I was making or never will. It matters not.

Just for completeness, I'm saying that I believe that it's likely to be counter-productive to complain about bigots not baking cakes - to go actively looking for them to make examples. Pick more strategic targets, make a point of standing above the bigots not simply against them and impress reasoned and reasonable people with your cause and demeaner.

The cause has gone beyond the need to throw yourself under the King's horse - get smarter.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Rrhain, posted 03-14-2017 8:42 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-14-2017 12:24 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 147 by Rrhain, posted 03-14-2017 3:06 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7022
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 143 of 1484 (802286)
03-14-2017 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by New Cat's Eye
03-14-2017 12:24 PM


Re: related issues
NCE writes:

If they would have quietly been bigots then we wouldn't be talking about this.

Yeh, I'm making two points.

1. Baking bigots would be better off making an excuse and pointing to a nicer baker
2. LGBTs have won the major argument, so don't go around deliberately targeting baking bigots, it doesn't look good.

Now I apparently have to say also that any LGBT with a genuine grieveance and evidence of hurt needs to shout about it. But so much I thought was obvious.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-14-2017 12:24 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Rrhain, posted 03-14-2017 3:38 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7022
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 152 of 1484 (802297)
03-14-2017 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Rrhain
03-14-2017 3:06 PM


Re: related issues
Rrhain writes:

Tangle runs away ...

Given your deliberate foolishness, one must be aggressive.

You're making it very easy for me to tell you to do one.

You don't get to decide what is important.

Yes I do. Just like you get to decide what is. And just as I'm able to disagree with you.

Whys thanks ya, massa! This here back o' the bus is just fine! It gets to the bus stop sames time as the front! I wouldn't want to run the risk of upsetting anybody who might be an ally by complaining!

You see what this does? I'm on your side, I agree with the complaint, I'd be on the streets beside you. Yet you're behaving like a total arsehole. How do you think that plays with your real opponants?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Rrhain, posted 03-14-2017 3:06 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Rrhain, posted 03-14-2017 5:05 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7022
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 160 of 1484 (802307)
03-14-2017 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Rrhain
03-14-2017 5:05 PM


Re: related issues
Rrhain writes:

You can understand why you would be considered a liar.

'Doing one' is a British way of nicely saying something nasty. So, you know, go do one. You're obviously not interested in reasoned and reasonable discussion.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Rrhain, posted 03-14-2017 5:05 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Rrhain, posted 03-14-2017 6:09 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7022
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 167 of 1484 (802316)
03-14-2017 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Rrhain
03-14-2017 6:09 PM


Re: related issues
Rrhain writes:

You know, when Faith tries that tactic, we all know it's because she's running away.

Sorry Chuck, I haven't read beyond this.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Rrhain, posted 03-14-2017 6:09 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Rrhain, posted 03-14-2017 7:26 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7022
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 174 of 1484 (802328)
03-15-2017 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Rrhain
03-14-2017 7:26 PM


Re: related issues
Rrhain writes:

So when you said you were looking for "reasoned and reasonable discussion," you were lying?

You just can't help yourself can you? If you want to discuss this with me you're going to have to turn down the aggression and stop calling me - among other things - a liar. Try it, you might make more progress.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Rrhain, posted 03-14-2017 7:26 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Rrhain, posted 03-15-2017 5:34 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7022
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 176 of 1484 (802346)
03-15-2017 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Modulous
03-14-2017 7:52 PM


Re: related issues
Modulous writes:

Suing someone is a pretty calm thing to do. It's literally the civilized way to deal with disputes. Reporting someone to a regulatory agency for breaching regulations likewise.

Personally suing somebody is never, ever, a calm thing to do. It's extreemly stressful, expensive and it hangs over people for months and years. If it can be avoided it absolutely should be.

But of course it's a fantastic strategic weapon for an activist campaign to use or for an individual that has suffered real harm. Cakes and bakers? Not really. Maybe once, to make the point.

Gay people are normal, nice ordinary and everyday. Most people already think this. Women are also normal, nice, ordinary and everyday. Sometimes they are discriminated against, and normal, nice ordinary and everyday average guys agree that people who discriminate should be penalized

Couldn't agree more. Just pick your fights shrewdly otherwise you risk being seen not being normal, nice etc.

If businesses don't realize that there is a risk of a serious financial liability for their actions, there is no motivation for any bigots that run them to change their business model to be lawful.

And, of course, I'm not disagreeing. There is a difference between saying 'never do this' and 'do this more strategically'.

That's what's happening: perseverance. You seem to advocating we don't bother because some big battle is won.

Ditto above.

Look, if the public hears constantly about seemingly trivial complaints from a particular section of society it will turn them against that sector. Consciousness raising is good but you have to be careful if it's not to backfire.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Modulous, posted 03-14-2017 7:52 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by ringo, posted 03-15-2017 3:19 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 179 by Modulous, posted 03-15-2017 5:00 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7022
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 177 of 1484 (802347)
03-15-2017 1:58 PM


Sorry about posting something of this length, but I thought it was just a fabulous thing.

On May 18, 1970, Jack Baker and Michael McConnell walked into a courthouse in Minneapolis, paid $10, and applied for a marriage license. The county clerk, Gerald Nelson, refused to give it to them. Obviously, he told them, marriage was for people of the opposite sex; it was silly to think otherwise.

Baker, a law student, didn’t agree. He and McConnell, a librarian, had met at a Halloween party in Oklahoma in 1966, shortly after Baker was pushed out of the Air Force for his sexuality. From the beginning, the men were committed to one another. In 1967, Baker proposed that they move in together. McConnell replied that he wanted to get married—really, legally married. The idea struck even Baker as odd at first, but he promised to find a way and decided to go to law school to figure it out.

When the clerk rejected Baker and McConnell’s application, they sued in state court. Nothing in the Minnesota marriage statute, Baker noted, mentioned gender. And even if it did, he argued, limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples would constitute unconstitutional discrimination on the basis of sex, violating both the due process and equal protection clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment. He likened the situation to that of interracial marriage, which the Supreme Court had found unconstitutional in 1967, in Loving v. Virginia.

The trial court dismissed Baker’s claim. The Minnesota Supreme Court upheld that dismissal, in an opinion that cited the dictionary definition of marriage and contended, “The institution of marriage as a union of man and woman...is as old as the book of Genesis.” Finally, in 1972, Baker appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court. It refused to hear the case, rejecting it with a single sentence: “The appeal is dismissed for want of a substantial federal question.” The idea that people of the same sex might have a constitutional right to get married, the dismissal suggested, was too absurd even to consider.

Last week, the high court reversed itself and declared that gays could marry nationwide. “Their hope is not to be condemned to live in loneliness, excluded from one of civilization’s oldest institutions,” Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote in his sweeping decision in Obergefell v. Hodges. “They ask for equal dignity in the eyes of the law. The Constitution grants them that right.”

The plaintiffs’ arguments in Obergefell were strikingly similar to those Baker made back in the 1970s. And the Constitution has not changed since Baker made his challenge (save for the ratification of the Twenty-Seventh Amendment, on congressional salaries). But the high court’s view of the legitimacy and constitutionality of same-sex marriage changed radically: In the span of 43 years, the notion had gone from ridiculous to constitutionally mandated. How did that happen?

I put the question to Mary Bonauto, who argued Obergefell before the Supreme Court in April. A Boston-based staff lawyer for Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders, Bonauto won the Massachusetts case that made the state the first to allow gay couples to wed in 2004. In 1971, she noted, sodomy was a crime in nearly every state, gays were routinely persecuted and barred from public and private employment, and homosexuality was classified as a mental illness. “We were just as right then as we are now,” she said. “But there was a complete lack of understanding of the existence and common humanity of gay people.”

What changed, in other words, wasn’t the Constitution—it was the country. And what changed the country was a movement.

Friday’s decision wasn’t solely or even primarily the work of the lawyers and plaintiffs who brought the case. It was the product of the decades of activism that made the idea of gay marriage seem plausible, desirable, and right. By now, it has become a political cliché to wonder at how quickly public opinion has changed on gay marriage in recent years—support for “marriages between homosexuals,” measured at 60 percent this year, was just 27 percent when Gallup first asked the question in 1996. But that didn’t happen organically.

Supporters of gay marriage rally in front of the U.S. Supreme Court in the days before the Obergefell v. Hodges decision. (Joshua Roberts / Reuters)
The fight for gay marriage was, above all, a political campaign—a decades-long effort to win over the American public and, in turn, the court. It was a campaign with no fixed election day, focused on an electorate of nine people. But what it achieved was remarkable: not just a Supreme Court decision but a revolution in the way America sees its gay citizens. “It’s a virtuous cycle,” Andrew Sullivan, the author and blogger whose 1989 essay on gay marriage for The New Republic gave the idea political currency, told me. “The more we get married, the more normal we seem. And the more normal we seem, the more human we seem, the more our equality seems obviously important.”

Some gay activists harbor a certain amount of nostalgia for the days when their movement was seen as radical, deviant, extreme. Today, when many Americans think of gay people, they may think of that nice couple in the next apartment, or the family in the next pew at church, or their fellow parents in the PTA. (Baker and McConnell are still together, living a quiet life as retirees in Minneapolis.) This normalization will continue to reverberate as gays and lesbians push for more rights—the right not to be discriminated against, for example. The gay-marriage revolution didn’t end when the Supreme Court ruled.

It goes a lot longer. Good strategic stuff.

https://www.theatlantic.com/...ourt-politics-activism/397052


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7022
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 184 of 1484 (802358)
03-15-2017 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Modulous
03-15-2017 5:00 PM


Re: related issues
Modulous writes:

It's always calm. You generally sit quietly, most of the work is done in writing and the rest is using inside voices......It can be stressful. That said, every lawsuit I've initiated was entirely stress free.

Ever given evidence in a witness box? It sounds like you may have - if you found that stress free you are unique to the world. Most have sleepless nights as a minimum and it's in their minds constantly. Some can hardly speak in the witness box, some are full of nervous bravado - it's a very few that appear calm and collected. They're usually the criminals.

As for the rest, I'm not going to repeat myself after this.

I'm making a general point that a very major battle has been won, it's a brilliant achievement, it would be a shame if it lost some of its import with the rest of society because of what you will object to me calling an over-reaction to petty bigotry - each one of which results in a national outrage polarising opinion and hardening views.

I'm not going to defend this point further, it's just my opinion.
People are allowed to have opinions that differ from other people, or so I'm told.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Modulous, posted 03-15-2017 5:00 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Modulous, posted 03-15-2017 6:15 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 191 by Rrhain, posted 03-15-2017 6:31 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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