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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
Faith
Member
Posts: 32700
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1381 of 1484 (855392)
06-19-2019 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1380 by Tangle
06-19-2019 7:49 AM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
I was responding to AZ's wish to grind my religion back to the stone age and rid society of us. You might pay attention to context.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1380 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2019 7:49 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1382 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2019 8:15 AM Faith has responded
 Message 1389 by ringo, posted 06-19-2019 11:33 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 1382 of 1484 (855394)
06-19-2019 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1381 by Faith
06-19-2019 8:11 AM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
Faith writes:

I was responding to AZ's wish to grind my religion back to the stone age and rid society of us. You might pay attention to context.

And I was responding to your love of, and desire for, persecution and martyrdom.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1381 by Faith, posted 06-19-2019 8:11 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1383 by Faith, posted 06-19-2019 8:27 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32700
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1383 of 1484 (855395)
06-19-2019 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1382 by Tangle
06-19-2019 8:15 AM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
I speak simply and factually, you are projecting all the stuff about my supposed desire for martyrdom. The fact is that the law is going against Christians and when someone expresses a wish to grind us back to the stone age that has a rather violent tone to it. This has absolutely nothing to do with my feelings. I'm very detached and objective about it all. You guys are always making up motivations for me; they have nothing whatever to do with me or my motivations.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1382 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2019 8:15 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1384 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2019 8:44 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 1384 of 1484 (855396)
06-19-2019 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1383 by Faith
06-19-2019 8:27 AM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
Faith writes:

I'm very detached and objective about it all.


Next time you start screaming in capitals I'll remind you of that statement

You guys are always making up motivations for me; they have nothing whatever to do with me or my motivations.

Sure Faith, and you're not looking forward to armageddon or rapture either.

We know you Faith, we have 10 years of your posts to refer back to if necessary.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1383 by Faith, posted 06-19-2019 8:27 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1408 by Faith, posted 06-19-2019 6:46 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6768
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.5


(3)
Message 1385 of 1484 (855398)
06-19-2019 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1376 by Faith
06-18-2019 11:08 PM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
...it's the Bible believer who acts on his/her conscience who will obey God and nobody else and take whatever the secular society metes out for the "crime."

Does God command you to bake wedding cakes? Probably not since not every Christian does.

It seems that a lot of these problems could be avoided if people would avoid occupations that require duties that go against their conscience.


It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn’t know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1376 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 11:08 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1386 by Lammy, posted 06-19-2019 11:08 AM Chiroptera has responded
 Message 1409 by Faith, posted 06-19-2019 6:58 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
Lammy
Member
Posts: 3611
From: Chicago
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 1386 of 1484 (855403)
06-19-2019 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1385 by Chiroptera
06-19-2019 9:12 AM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
Married to another dude gay dude here.

I fully support christian bakers to be able to refuse service to gays anytime anywhere. To me, freedom of speech and religion is much more important than my feelings.


If you say the word "gullible" slowly, it sounds like oranges. Go ahead and try it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1385 by Chiroptera, posted 06-19-2019 9:12 AM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1387 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2019 11:30 AM Lammy has not yet responded
 Message 1388 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-19-2019 11:31 AM Lammy has not yet responded
 Message 1391 by Chiroptera, posted 06-19-2019 12:08 PM Lammy has not yet responded
 Message 1392 by Chiroptera, posted 06-19-2019 12:39 PM Lammy has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 1387 of 1484 (855404)
06-19-2019 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1386 by Lammy
06-19-2019 11:08 AM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
Lammy writes:

I fully support christian bakers to be able to refuse service to gays anytime anywhere. To me, freedom of speech and religion is much more important than my feelings.

That's the UK legal position now following a supreme court appeal.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-45789759

And it's also Peter Tachell's view too - he's the founder of Stonewall and a big gay rights campaigner.

https://www.theguardian.com/...reedom-of-conscience-religion

I think it's a close call - a difficult balance between rights - but freedom of conscience seems more important than a cake that can be sourced elsewhere.

Tricky line though, where does it stop?

The other case we had was about two gays being turned away from a bed and breakfast place. I think that's a bit harder to defend - it begins to feel more like apartheid. The Supreme Court agrees with me. How about you?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-25119158


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1386 by Lammy, posted 06-19-2019 11:08 AM Lammy has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1390 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-19-2019 11:38 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5787
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1388 of 1484 (855405)
06-19-2019 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1386 by Lammy
06-19-2019 11:08 AM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
Married to another dude gay dude here. I fully support christian bakers to be able to refuse service to gays anytime anywhere. To me, freedom of speech and religion is much more important than my feelings.

Well, I certainly commend you on the ability to look at something with great objectivity. That is an amazing and commendable trait. On the surface level, I agree with you. Its his shop, his beliefs, and in general the right to refuse service is intact. Kind of like an Uber driver. At the end of the day, its his vehicle and he can decide whether or not to cancel the ride.

The only problem is that as we've seen with other cases from the past, lets use the right of white store owners to segregate blacks. Same premise: Its his store, his beliefs and he reserves the right to refuse service. But can he do that? Legally, no. I actually think a store should be able to since I believe the free market will correct their behavior without any government intervention necessary... but that aside...

The courts have decided before that when it comes to commerce you cannot exclude on the basis of gender, race, sexual orientation and so on... And I get that argument too.

Of course, if I was the gay couple there's no way in hell I'm giving a cent to your store, I'm writing a terrible Yelp review, and I'm urging anyone in sight to boycott that store. If I'm the bakery's owner, I'm not turning down business or willing to alienate a segment of my potential business to make some kind of Chick-Fil-A message.

But I digress, as none of that is relevant... At some point we have to adjudicate for the people that will persist. As it stands, the Masterpiece case is not fully decided. The case was dismissed because the Colorado Civil Rights Commission was found to be hostile towards Phillips. The big question is still out there for debate. Its a tough one.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1386 by Lammy, posted 06-19-2019 11:08 AM Lammy has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17145
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1389 of 1484 (855407)
06-19-2019 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1381 by Faith
06-19-2019 8:11 AM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
Faith writes:

I was responding to AZ's wish to grind my religion back to the stone age and rid society of us. You might pay attention to context.


You might pay attention to context - or even read the words at all. The desire is to grind your religion down, not you yourself. You yourself are welcome to believe in leprechauns or whatever but your religion must be deprived of every vestige of the power it has to persecute whomever you don't like.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1381 by Faith, posted 06-19-2019 8:11 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5787
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1390 of 1484 (855408)
06-19-2019 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1387 by Tangle
06-19-2019 11:30 AM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
I think it's a close call - a difficult balance between rights - but freedom of conscience seems more important than a cake that can be sourced elsewhere.

Tricky line though, where does it stop?

Exactly, therein lies the problem. No matter which way the court decides, a conflict between inalienable rights will arise. So its imperative of the court to delineate between extremes to find sensible common ground that inherently seeks to protect both rights as much as possible and to figure out where that line is... what's a bridge too far? The Court must figure that out and set precedence. Tough job... glad that's not laid at my feet.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1387 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2019 11:30 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6768
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 1391 of 1484 (855411)
06-19-2019 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1386 by Lammy
06-19-2019 11:08 AM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
To me, freedom of speech and religion is much more important than my feelings.

That's fine.

Except that this really isn't about "freedom of religion" - surely "freedom of religion" can't mean "freedom to pick and choose which laws you're going to obey"?

This is about what are the appropriate restrictions that can be placed on a business, especially one that is a "public accommodation".

Most of us feel it is entirely appropriate to prohibit discrimination against people who have historically suffered discrimination. And some of us feel that being gay is no different than being black or being a Jehovah's Witness.

If you feel differently, you are free to lobby to remove (or to not add) sexual orientation to your jurisdiction's anti-discrimination statutes.

P. S. Congratulations on your marriage. I wish you joy and happiness together!


It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn’t know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1386 by Lammy, posted 06-19-2019 11:08 AM Lammy has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1393 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-19-2019 1:25 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6768
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 1392 of 1484 (855412)
06-19-2019 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1386 by Lammy
06-19-2019 11:08 AM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
...freedom of speech....

This, of course, is a little more troublesome, as the Court acknowledges.

But Ginsburg points out in her dissent that in Masterpiece Cakeshop's advertisements, the wedding cakes had no writing or no figures or anything at all that would indicate what kind of wedding the cake is intended for, and Phillips (the owner) refused to bake the wedding cake before there was any discussion about any decorations to be put on thecake. She points out, correctly in my opinion, that a cake by itself is not a message, and doesn't become one just because it's intended for a particular customer.


It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn’t know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1386 by Lammy, posted 06-19-2019 11:08 AM Lammy has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1395 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-19-2019 1:35 PM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5787
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1393 of 1484 (855413)
06-19-2019 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1391 by Chiroptera
06-19-2019 12:08 PM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
Except that this really isn't about "freedom of religion" - surely "freedom of religion" can't mean "freedom to pick and choose which laws you're going to obey"?

This is about what are the appropriate restrictions that can be placed on a business, especially one that is a "public accommodation".

For the sake of the argument, if a gay baker had a customer that came in wanting a cake that has a bible verse that is hostile towards homosexuality, would the baker be legally obligated to provide that to the customer? Private people can believe whatever they want. When it comes to commerce there's less wiggle room but still some, when it comes to government there's no wiggle room whatsoever.

So is the Christian who wants the bible verse on his cake being discriminated against for his Constitutionally protected beliefs if the gay baker refuses to accommodate that request? Shouldn't the gay baker be allowed to refuse service if it meaningfully conflicts with his personal beliefs?

As to the specifics of this particular case, Phillips (Masterpiece baker) was not refusing business. He stated that he could and would provide other accommodations. That distinguishes from a sign that says "Homosexuals not welcome," which would be an outright and incontestable civil rights violation.

So the question really becomes how far is a bridge too far? Obviously there always has to be a line drawn somewhere. If a Trump supporter came in to bake a cake disparaging Bernie Sanders, is the bakery obligated to accommodate, especially if providing that cake inherently could hurt the reputation of that store? Maybe that store are Bernie supporters. Maybe they aren't Bernie supporters but don't want to alienate segments of society that would hurt their bottom line.

Where is the line?

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1391 by Chiroptera, posted 06-19-2019 12:08 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1394 by PaulK, posted 06-19-2019 1:32 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 1405 by Chiroptera, posted 06-19-2019 3:45 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15321
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 1394 of 1484 (855414)
06-19-2019 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1393 by Hyroglyphx
06-19-2019 1:25 PM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
quote:

For the sake of the argument, if a gay baker had a customer that came in wanting a cake that has a bible verse that is hostile towards homosexuality, would the baker be legally obligated to provide that to the customer? Private people can believe whatever they want. When it comes to commerce there's less wiggle room but still some, when it comes to government there's no wiggle room whatsoever.

Decorations are a tougher case, but unless the baker advertises that they will provide any decoration the customer asks for, it is generally accepted that there will be some limits.

See also Chiroptera’s comment above - it seems that decorations were not the issue in the Masterpiece bakery case.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1393 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-19-2019 1:25 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1396 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-19-2019 1:41 PM PaulK has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5787
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1395 of 1484 (855415)
06-19-2019 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1392 by Chiroptera
06-19-2019 12:39 PM


Re: SCOTUS refuses to hear about "gay wedding cakes"
But Ginsburg points out in her dissent that in Masterpiece Cakeshop's advertisements, the wedding cakes had no writing or no figures or anything at all that would indicate what kind of wedding the cake is intended for, and Phillips (the owner) refused to bake the wedding cake before there was any discussion about any decorations to be put on thecake. She points out, correctly in my opinion, that a cake by itself is not a message, and doesn't become one just because it's intended for a particular customer.

Lets not be obtuse... if a Klansman came in wanting swastika's (none of that is inherently illegal) are you suggesting that its "just a cake?" The decoration itself is meaningful... its not "just a cake." Can you compel a vendor to articulate something vile in his own shop?


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1392 by Chiroptera, posted 06-19-2019 12:39 PM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1397 by AZPaul3, posted 06-19-2019 1:51 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
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