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Author Topic:   Can you disprove this secular argument against evolution?
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 879 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 151 of 293 (804595)
04-11-2017 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by forexhr
04-11-2017 7:33 AM


Re: Predictions and Discoveries
Your theory started with its fundamnetal hypothesis of divergence. But then completely opposite scientific facts were discovered - animals on different branches which have homologous traits that comes from a different common ancestor. Simply put - fundamental evolutionary hypothesis was falsified. In order to save the theory, evolutionists invented an excuse - ad hoc classification scheme in the form of unfalsifiable convergent evolution. Your theory also started with the fundamnetal hypothesis of perfect branching pattern. When science discovered "genealogical discordance so widespread that no single tree topology predominates", then evolutionists simply invented unfalsifiable, ad hoc mental construct called incomplete lineage sorting.
By your reasoning medical science would be would be falsified, ad-hoc mental constructs as well, as medical science is constantly reinventing itself, retracting old recommendations, discovering new explanations for medical phenomenon, discarding old treatments, etc.
Hence, evolution falls short by 20 orders of magnitude to produce just one selectable effect or adaptation.
You have yet to address why the paper you cited concluded that there has been enough sampling to cover the entire functional landscape. That the actual space that needs to be searched is vastly smaller than your numbers predict.
You have also failed to address the fact that you are drawing a target around a specific function and claiming it is impossible to hit that target, when in reality, there are numerous other targets that exist that could be landed on.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by forexhr, posted 04-11-2017 7:33 AM forexhr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by forexhr, posted 04-11-2017 2:15 PM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 879 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 154 of 293 (804606)
04-11-2017 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by forexhr
04-11-2017 2:15 PM


Re: Predictions and Discoveries
Medicine is neither a theory, nor an idea nor a hypothesis but human activity concerned with maintenance of health and the prevention, alleviation, or cure of disease. You are mixing apples and oranges.
Medicine is based on theories, ideas and hypotheses that change as new discoveries are made. You are just playing word games.
How about this: Evolution is also a human activity that is concerned with understanding how organisms change and adapt to the environment and varying selection pressures and how these processes likely affected life in the past as well.
Finding functional landscape and covering functional landscape once it is found are two completely different things. My numbers are concerned with search for functional landscape.
This makes no sense.
And you still haven't addressed the papers you cited.
They claim the estimated size of the possible sequence space is much smaller than the number you used. They argue that 20x is a meaningless overestimation of the potential sequence space. They suggest that a more meaningful number should be 2x or 2x/3, which, if correct, makes your whole argument moot.
In biology targets are always specific. Ability of the lambda repressor to bind to lambda genome in order to regulate expresion of cI protein is a specific function.
That still misses my point. Your claim is that to go from target A to target B is impossible because the possible space is enormous (a figure opposed by the paper you cite) and the number of trials is 20 orders of magnitude smaller than the proportion of functional sequences. But this proportion of sequences only applies to target A. It does not establish the proportion of function sequences in target B nor does it establish the functional distance from target A to target B. What if target A and target B are only 10 mutations apart? would that be impossible?
Also why does it have to go from target A to target B, and not target C or D or E or F ect. You are drawing the bulls-eye around the target B and claiming it is impossible to start at target A and then hit target B. So, miss target B and hit target Z instead.
You also ignore the modularity of proteins. A protein can be made up of a series of domains. Rearranging those domains or deleting one domain (for example deleting a membrane association domain could allow the protein to function in the cytoplasm or the nucleus and completely change how it functions) or translocation of a domain from one location to another can change function without having to sift through the entire possible sequences.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by forexhr, posted 04-11-2017 2:15 PM forexhr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by forexhr, posted 04-12-2017 4:33 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 879 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 164 of 293 (804704)
04-12-2017 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by forexhr
04-12-2017 7:41 AM


Re: Predictions and Discoveries
And this target is a massive complex comprising five non-coding RNAs and about 200 proteins:
Your list of 200 proteins are not all associated into one giant complex. The list you present appears to be all proteins known to have association of any kind to spliceosome activity.
I will have to come back later to address some specifics, but some of them are from yeast some from human, so not all of these associate in one complex and at one time. So to represent this list of 200 proteins as a huge complex seems dubious.
Do you have a source for this information?
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by forexhr, posted 04-12-2017 7:41 AM forexhr has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 879 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 187 of 293 (804898)
04-13-2017 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by forexhr
04-13-2017 3:11 PM


into a 200 specific proteins to gain RNA splicing ability.
I am calling you out on this again. This is a false or misleading statement. There are not 200 proteins that associate into a massive complex that is a spliceosome. Do you have a source for your information regarding this claim and the 200 associated proteins?
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by forexhr, posted 04-13-2017 3:11 PM forexhr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by forexhr, posted 04-14-2017 2:14 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
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