|
Understanding through Discussion |
|
QuickSearch
|
|
| |||||||
| Chatting now: | Chat room empty | ||||||
| WookieeB | |||||||
|
| Thread ▼ Details |
|
|
| Author | Topic: Can you disprove this secular argument against evolution? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
forexhr Member (Idle past 112 days)  Posts: 129 Joined: |
It is really amazing how you insist on these non sequiturs. It is true that the relationship between the AA sequence and the 3D structure of a protein is not unique - a large number of modifications in the sequence within a protein family can be tolerated and will result in a similar 3D structure. But that has absolutely nothing to do with resources that are necesary to find a particular 3D structure. If you have 10^57 different AA sequences that result in a similar 3D structure this high degree of conservation of the 3D structure, compared to sequence conservation, does not change the fact that you need 10^63 reources to find this specific 3D structure. Your capacity for non sequiturs is breathtaking.
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Percy Member  Posts: 18252 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.0 |
You're still committing the sharpshooter fallacy. There is no single correct target. There are many correct targets. I have a contextual question. When is this supposedly impossible search that you insist evolution requires supposed to happen? During a reproductive event? --Percy
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Pressie Member Posts: 1998 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Genomicus Member  Posts: 852 Joined:
|
Didn't say I was. What I am suggesting, and will continue to emphasize, is that your lack of knowledge of the relevant biological disciplines shows itself repeatedly. There's a certain suspicious arrogance on your part wherein you have the audacity to critique well-evidenced theory without deeply understanding really anything about the relevant biology -- whether it's genomics, molecular biology, biochemistry, or population genetics.
I was familiar with the discoveries and experimental approaches of Barbara McClintock's research when I was a sophomore in high school. I have rather extensively read her notable publications, probably more so than you have or ever will. But, idk, maybe you could cite which paper in particular supports your assertion that the transposition mechanism is pre-programmed in such a way that insertions shouldn't count as beneficial mutations.
Then you don't know how to think experimentally. To understand the causes of the jumps, it is immensely useful to examine the characteristics of transposable elements. The above observations, coupled to reams of experimental research on transposons, indicate that transopson insertions are mutations which are just as stochastic and just as forceful a driver of evolution as substitution mutations (e.g., consider that the transposition rate in bacteria is similar to the spontaneous mutation rate).
And an incapacity for verbal comprehension belongs in a number of categories, as well. I am not making an appeal to authority in the above quote; I'm stressing, again, the absurdity of someone trying to argue about molecular biology while having only a rudimentary-at-best understanding of that field.
...says the individual who doesn't understand much about, like, any of the relevant scientific disciplines.
Yeah, reading that made me almost spit out my coffee on my computer screen. There is absolutely not a shred of evidence that this mutation was pre-programmed in the genome any more than substitution mutations are. There is, however, a large amount of experimental research which shows that transposon insertions are stochastic, and so the peppered moth example is an excellent example of a beneficial mutation. I bet if BLASTed the peppered moth's transposon insertion sequence, I'd find a ton of homologs in the moth's genome -- and the distribution of these homologs would be random and non-predictable. What do you think?
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Taq Member  Posts: 7670 Joined: Member Rating: 4.3
|
How is it unknown? We can observe transposons jumping randomly within a genome. Even you have said that transposon mutagenesis can result in negative, neutral, or even beneficial changes. That is the very definition of a random process of mutation.
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Taq Member Posts: 7670 Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
You can also have different 3D structures that perform the same function. That's the part you keep missing.
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Taq Member Posts: 7670 Joined: Member Rating: 4.3
|
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposon_mutagenesis About 20 years ago, I was "lucky" enough to screen about 3,000 mutants for a specific gene knockout after a round of transposon mutagenesis. This was prior to modern times where a bacterial genome can be quickly sequenced and annotated. I know that transposons can randomly mutate a genome because I've personally watched it happen. Like Genomicus, I also find it interesting that creationists can brazenly make sweeping conclusions about a vast area of biology with little or no knowledge of the relevant science. At some point, these threads are more about the psychology of creationism than the actual science, since the creationists really aren't all that interested in the science to begin with. How does a belief system remove curiosity and replace it with denial and unfounded confidence? An interesting question, for sure.
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Chiroptera Member  Posts: 6531 From: Oklahoma Joined:
|
That doesn't come as much of a surprise to those who follow political debates here in the US. The Republican party has, even before Trump, a habit of appointing mind-boggling unqualified ignorant people to key posts. In political debates, they have long been in the habit of calling relevant experts in all fields - even scientists - "glassy-eyed cultists", con artists, and/or ignorant dupes. Listening to their debates, it's remarkable how US conservatives (or what gets called "conservatives" these days) take pride in their ignorance and narrow mindedness. They have this faith that because of their "common sense" they know more about every field than actual properly trained experienced experts. The creationism is just one part of the anti-intellectualism that has always characterize US society. I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. -- Paul Krugman
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
forexhr Member (Idle past 112 days) Posts: 129 Joined: |
The development of the discussion on this thread is a beautiful example of why the ToE, although it meets all of the criteria, is still not officially declared a pseudoscience. Since biology is a pretty complex area of science, there are myriad number of retorical niches to which darwinists have adapt in order to be able to defend their pseudoscience and in the same time create the illusion that their darwinism is a valid scientific theory. Currently the discussion on air is about the jumping genes. Darwinists in this thread are on them like piranhas on a prey. But, jumping genes have absolutely nothing to do with evolution. They are just the pre-existing sequences that can move from one location in the genome to other. Evolution on the other hand, is supposed to explain the origin of higher life forms that are characterized by organs, organ systems, de novo molecular machines, metabolic pathways,... or in short - specific 3D shapes that we observe in living systems. In this thread, I proved that there haven't been enough resources in the history of life to find these 3D shapes. But, darwinists in this thread completely ignored this important issue, either via non sequiturs, red herrings, appeals to authority, ad hominems and various others pseudoscientific techniques. It is really interesting to watch how pseudoscience operates. In my next post I will conclude this discussion with easy-to-understand falsification of evolution.
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Tangle Member  Posts: 6613 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.9
|
I love this creationist trope. It's repeated by The loonytunes Davidjay and the sadly deluded Faith, here daily. Despite your ideas being debunked and proven wanting by everyone here from every level of argument from logic to molecular genetics using the very papers you site. You declare victory. It's both amusing and sad. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Pressie Member Posts: 1998 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given. Edited by Pressie, : No reason given. Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
bluegenes Member (Idle past 522 days)  Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined:
|
You may not understand the relevance, but that doesn't make my point a non-sequitur.
And there would also be a large number of functional modifications in any other sequence family that could give you the function. Functionally similar proteins don't need to be identifiable by sequence as family. Sequence ≠ Structure ≠ Function ≠ Sequence New Science Press: From Sequence to Function quote:
The 10^57 are only those from one sequential family, not the set of all sequences which would function in that context. And you're still sharpshooting. Like: If one in 100,000 Americans are called Donald Trump, then 100,000 Presidential election resources are needed to get a President called Donald Trump. Always remember, when considering something like Lambda and its proteins that there's a set of 10^(virtual infinity) of different potential phages with different proteins that have never come into existence.
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Percy Member Posts: 18252 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.0
|
Evolution is descent with modification combined with natural selection, and the example of the peppered moth with its jumping gene is exactly that.
Evolution explains the diversity of life by explaining how adaptation happens, namely descent with modification and natural selection. You're still committing the sharpshooter fallacy. The sheer diversity of life itself shows that there are vast numbers of satisfactory targets. --Percy
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Pressie Member Posts: 1998 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
Thanks Percy, I didn't read through that word salad presented by forexhr.
Evolutionary theory explains all those higher life forms very well. Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
bluegenes Member (Idle past 522 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined:
|
In my next post, I will give easy to understand explanations of how to produce a rabbit ex nihilo out of a hat*, and how to make a new moon out of Camembert. *As accurately depicted at left
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019
(1)