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Author Topic:   The TRVE history of the Flood...
Coyote
Member (Idle past 302 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1 of 85 (803930)
04-05-2017 7:07 PM


Davidjay writes:

Coyote, if you want the true history of the Flood, just start a new thread, on it and I shall answer. You can post your billions and trillions of years, and I can post my immensely smaller exact numbers.

Not a problem, just go to Proposed New Topics....

As requested, here is a proposed new topic in which Davidjay can enlighten us on the TRVE history of the Flood.

I'd like to suggest the Humor forum, but probably shouldn't...


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


Coyote
Member (Idle past 302 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 3 of 85 (803939)
04-05-2017 8:56 PM


As I posted in the previous thread:

Coyote writes:

My own archaeological research disproves the global flood ca. 4500 years ago. Research by my colleagues disproves it thousands of times over.

In my research I have continuity of human cultures from before to after the date of the flood, and most importantly I have mitochondrial DNA of the same type extending from before to after that date. If there was such a flood, the earlier mtDNA haplotype would be eliminated, to be replaced by a type from the Middle East.

A few other little details: there is no evidence of the erosional or depositional features that would necessarily associate with such a flood in the area I study.

But if you truly want to see the features left by flood erosion, google "channeled scablands" and look at the images. Some notable examples are from central and eastern Washington:

The nice thing about the flood evidence in Washington is that we can date the events and we know the cause! They occurred between 18,000 and 13,000 years ago, and resulted from formation and breakage of ice dams upstream.

Oh, and this evidence is about three or four times older than the purported global flood. How is it that we see the evidence of those older floods but not evidence of a much larger and much more recent flood?

(Answer: it didn't happen.)

So, don't be claiming that the flood is TRVE history. It is a belief, not a fact.

So, Davidjay, here's your big chance to "prove" the global flood ca. 4500 years ago. But you should be aware that all the mathematical models you can concoct won't overturn the huge amounts of real-world evidence that shows there was no such flood.

Maybe you could also address my archaeological research, cited above--which you ignored on the previous thread?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 9:03 PM Coyote has responded
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 9:46 PM Coyote has responded

Coyote
Member (Idle past 302 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 5 of 85 (803941)
04-05-2017 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
04-05-2017 9:03 PM


I started a whole thread some months back for creationists to provide evidence that modern dating methods are somehow inaccurate.

Perhaps you could take your evidence there?

Because you get nowhere just claiming dating methods are "fallible" without evidence.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 9:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 9:11 PM Coyote has responded

Coyote
Member (Idle past 302 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 7 of 85 (803943)
04-05-2017 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
04-05-2017 9:11 PM


No I can't disprove your methods directly...

Creationists have been trying to disprove radiometric and radiocarbon dating methods for decades with no success.

They've resorted to some rather ingenious scenarios, but none are supported by the evidence.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 9:11 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 9:24 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Coyote
Member (Idle past 302 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 11 of 85 (803947)
04-05-2017 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
04-05-2017 9:46 PM


Actually it's your dates that are a belief rather than a fact.

Everything in your responses hinges on the dates, but again you offer no evidence -- just belief -- that the dating is inaccurate.

As RAZD has eloquently pointed out in his dating threads, evidence from numerous different fields all supports scientific dating methods.

The simplest of these, for radiocarbon dating, is calibration via tree rings (or glacial varves, corals, or other annular phenomena). This has been done in a number of areas around the world and the results agree -- radiocarbon dating is accurate.

You can disbelieve that all you want, but you have to ignore a huge amount of evidence to do so.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 9:46 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 10:05 PM Coyote has responded

Coyote
Member (Idle past 302 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 13 of 85 (803949)
04-05-2017 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
04-05-2017 10:05 PM


If you can't accept evidence there is no point in continuing this discussion.

You must realize that you're just "wishing away" huge amounts of evidence because of your a priori beliefs.

In a scientific discussion that simply isn't done.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 10:05 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 04-05-2017 10:30 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Coyote
Member (Idle past 302 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 25 of 85 (803997)
04-06-2017 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Davidjay
04-06-2017 10:34 AM


Real world evidence
Davidjay writes:

Word salad

Davidjay writes:

Again confirming the Biblical exact year of 2348 BC

Hmmm. I have obtained radiocarbon dates of BC 2344, 2334, and 2306 in a couple of my excavations. Didn't see any evidence of floods.

I also have continuity of mitochondrial DNA from before to after your 2348 BC date. That shows there was no population change.

Perhaps you should knock off your mathematical models and look at real-world evidence for a change?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Davidjay, posted 04-06-2017 10:34 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by PaulK, posted 04-06-2017 10:52 AM Coyote has acknowledged this reply
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 04-06-2017 1:25 PM Coyote has responded

Coyote
Member (Idle past 302 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 38 of 85 (804030)
04-06-2017 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
04-06-2017 1:25 PM


Re: Real world evidence
Coyote, with all due respect I hope, this argument is really silly. I don't know what David's arguments amount to since I can't read the links, but most likely you are simply not seeing the evidence creationists identify for the Flood although it's probably there even where you are doing your dating. The claim is that there is enough observed evidence that doesn't fit the Old Earth model to call the dating methods into question. You need to respond to the claims of such evidence instead of just relying on your dating methods alone.

Your claim is that a religion-based belief disagrees with real-world evidence, so we have to discount the real-world evidence? All of it?

That's not the way science works, and I am, at least, following science and scientific evidence. So far, there is no scientific evidence that shows radiocarbon dating is inaccurate, and there is a mountain of scientific evidence that shows that it is. RAZD has provided that evidence in several threads on dating.

But I understand that creationists discount any evidence that disagrees with their beliefs, so no amount of evidence will suffice for them.

But for those who do follow evidence, Davidjay provided an "exact" date for the global flood, and I provided three radiocarbon dates I have personally obtained in the immediate "after flood" time period. Looking at my full list, I have obtained six radiocarbon dates in the century after Davidjay's "exact" date.

Unless you or some other creationist can show those dates are wrong -- and belief isn't enough -- then that evidence by itself disproves the global flood at Davidjay's date. Archaeologists all of the world have provided similar and even better evidence disproving the purported flood.

Well I am, and for all I know David is too, looking at real-world evidence (not scientific theories but physical observations) -- it's what I've been arguing here and everywhere else I've argued this -- observations of the real world.

Since these observations call the Old Earth model into question, they also call the dating methods into question, so you can't just keep pointing to those methods as if they trump everything else.

No, it is religious belief that causes creationists to call the dating methods into question. They are not able to show the methods are inaccurate, although they have tried for decades.

Until somebody can show that these dating methods are wrong anyone who follows the evidence must accept the results. You can't just hand-wave away any results you don't like.

That's where creation "science" differs from real science.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 04-06-2017 1:25 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 04-06-2017 2:05 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Coyote
Member (Idle past 302 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 66 of 85 (804133)
04-07-2017 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Davidjay
04-07-2017 10:14 AM


Step 1--Nonsense
The Math is correct...

But the conclusion is nonsense.

You can model math 'til the cows come home and it won't magically poof a flood into existence when all the real-world evidence shows such a flood at your "exact" date never happened.

You might as well be "proving" mathematically that bumblebees can't fly.

You have yet to address the evidence I provided way back toward the beginning of the thread.

To summarize: I have radiocarbon dates from my excavations falling in the years right after the purported flood, and I have mtDNA evidence of the same haplotype from before to after the date you give for the flood. Neither of these would be possible if there was a global flood.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Davidjay, posted 04-07-2017 10:14 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

Coyote
Member (Idle past 302 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 77 of 85 (804218)
04-08-2017 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Davidjay
04-07-2017 11:53 PM


Re: Evidence against the global flood being ignored
But already I and we are light years ahead of evolutionists because they have no math, no viable history just theory on theory.

Ummmm. We have evidence, which is more than you have.

I posted some evidence upthread twice from my own archaeological projects which by itself disproves the global flood at the "exact" time you are promoting.

Why have you ignored that evidence?

Or are you just here to push your pet theories, with no effort to actually debate the issue?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Davidjay, posted 04-07-2017 11:53 PM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Davidjay, posted 04-08-2017 1:05 AM Coyote has not yet responded

Coyote
Member (Idle past 302 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 81 of 85 (804222)
04-08-2017 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Davidjay
04-08-2017 12:30 AM


Re: Re:Step 3 Confirming distance TIME to the Great Flood
Evolutionists try to within a billion years whereas us creationists try to be much much more exact

So, you have the exact date of the flood that never happened?

How about addressing the evidence I posted, or are you just going to continuing on your merry way, ignoring everything that contradicts your mathematical "proof?"


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Davidjay, posted 04-08-2017 12:30 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

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