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Author Topic:   Laws happened by accident ? and did Laws evolve ?
Percy
Member
Posts: 18611
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 7 of 114 (804812)
04-13-2017 9:53 AM


The observational evidence indicates that the laws of the universe have been in place unchanged since the Big Bang. I know there has been speculation that the fine structure constant has changed slightly over time, but that hasn't yet been confirmed.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Davidjay, posted 04-13-2017 10:09 AM Percy has responded
 Message 71 by Dredge, posted 04-21-2017 10:31 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18611
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 10 of 114 (804819)
04-13-2017 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Davidjay
04-13-2017 10:09 AM


Re: Verry Good Percy, no changes in laws since creation
Davidjay writes:

Other evolutionists can differ with you if they please, but lets analyse your statement, as I would say and agree with you that evolution says, all laws were there from CREATION.

Evolution is a theory of biology, not physics, and has no comment on the Big Bang or the origin of the laws of the universe.

You would suggest that it is all by random luck and chance...

We don't know the degree of determinism regarding the Big Bang.

...that this BIG EXPLOSION created life...

The Big Bang occurred billions of years before the origin of life. These events are not directly related.

Why because throughout this discussion board, evolutionists do confirm that evolution is based on sheer lucky mutations. Right.

That would be incorrect. Mutations are random, selection is not.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Davidjay, posted 04-13-2017 10:09 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Davidjay, posted 04-13-2017 11:26 AM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18611
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 17 of 114 (804842)
04-13-2017 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Davidjay
04-13-2017 11:26 AM


Re: Verry Good Percy,
Davidjay writes:

Their theory is that a Big Bang Explosion caused the laws of the Universe,...

Physics doesn't actually know if the Big Bang caused the laws of the universe. They may or may not have predated the Big Bang.

Their theory is that a Big Bang Explosion caused the laws of the Universe, and then their theory states that by chance or luck thereafter, maybe an eon or two chemicals just magically created life.
...
I agree evolutionists do not know and have no answer for amazing laws and chemicals that just so called happened to be created with a magic Big Bang Explosion.

Evolution is neither a theory of cosmology nor of the origin of life.

So again Percy admits that evolution is sheerly by luck and chance.

Evolution is descent with modification and natural selection. Descent with modification can include random changes, but selection is not random.

Well first, this assumes there is such a thing as a magical lucky mutation or roll of the dice that actually benefits an organism. Secondly, if this magically produced mutation actually works then it proves that selection is not at random.

Whether a mutation is successful or not, whether it was selected for or against, selection is a non-random process imposed by the environment. The degree of successful adaptation governs the degree of success of a species.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Davidjay, posted 04-13-2017 11:26 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Davidjay, posted 04-14-2017 11:35 AM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18611
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 18 of 114 (804847)
04-13-2017 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Davidjay
04-13-2017 11:31 AM


Re: Inadequate Response Adequate
Davidjay writes:

I am very interested in your statement that the Big Bang was not an explosion.
...
Ask Percy, I would think he would disagree with you.

The Big Bang, the term originating as one of ridicule by Fred Hoyle, was not an explosion but a very rapid expansion, especially the period of inflation. (Hoyle preferred a steady state theory of the universe.)

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Davidjay, posted 04-13-2017 11:31 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 04-13-2017 12:06 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 43 by Davidjay, posted 04-17-2017 10:25 AM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18611
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


(3)
Message 19 of 114 (804849)
04-13-2017 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Davidjay
04-13-2017 11:34 AM


Re: Percy, there were no laws before the Big Bang ?
Davidjay writes:

According to you Percy, the Big Bang created the laws of the Universe.

Physics does not know if the laws of the universe predated the Big Bang.

Then logically, there were no laws before the Big Bang. Right or Wrong.

We don't know what came before the Big Bang, though there are some hypotheses. Keep in mind that there was no time in our universe before the Big Bang, so concepts like "before the Big Bang" do not have much meaning.

If wrong, and if in your opinion there were laws before the Big Bang, and then the Big Bang made some more laws, then new laws would have been created afterwards.... and you could state that laws evolved in your theory.

What say ye, or what theorize ye ?

I you're asking me personally, then I don't know. Observational evidence indicates that the laws of the universe have remained unchanged since the Big Bang. Concerning the laws of the universe, there is no evidence indicating a process of descent with modification and natural selection, so evolution wouldn't apply.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Davidjay, posted 04-13-2017 11:34 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18611
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 37 of 114 (805041)
04-15-2017 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Davidjay
04-14-2017 11:35 AM


Re: Evolution doesnt deal with origins of laws or life !
Davidjay writes:

But let me get back to the TOPIC, its laws. And honest Percy admits evolution hasn;t a clue about the origin of life, nor about what or who created the laws.

Hence I would suggest, He is RIGHT evolution doesnt have anything to do with the origins of life, or the origins of the laws of life and non life.

Consequently all evolutionists can honestly say HERE is that , they have no idea. To this I agree 100 percent

This isn't accurate. The theory of evolution is about how species change over time, not about the origin of life, but there are many hypotheses about the origin of life. We may never know precisely how it happened, there's little evidence left after 4 billion years, but we're pretty sure it involved replication and selection. Like evolutionary change, the origin of life was likely gradual, and the boundary between the origin of life and actual life uncertain.

Why all the discussion about biological evolution? What about your topic about whether the laws of the physical universe evolve? The evidence we have thus far suggests that they don't.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Davidjay, posted 04-14-2017 11:35 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 04-15-2017 7:45 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18611
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 45 of 114 (805290)
04-17-2017 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Davidjay
04-17-2017 10:25 AM


Re: Re:The Big Bang was slow expansion, JOKE
Davidjay writes:

Watch this brethren, The double speak of evolutionists has hit an all time HIGH in ridicuolousness, as they now say, the Big Bang was not an explosion but an inflation, and expansion, organized and nice that just happened to create life.
...
...but it wasn't a BIG Bang, it was a slow controled Bang.

The evidence indicates that the Big Bang was not an explosion into space but a very rapid expansion of space.

There is no connection between the Big Bang and the origin of life on Earth - the Big Bang occurred billions of years before the Earth even existed.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Davidjay, posted 04-17-2017 10:25 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18611
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 73 of 114 (806027)
04-22-2017 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Dredge
04-21-2017 10:31 PM


Dredge writes:

In order for the Big Bang to occur, surely there must have already been laws.

Intuitively it does feel that way, at least a set of meta-laws for creating laws (begging the question where the meta-laws came from), but if one is restricting oneself to statements based on evidence then we have no evidence for what came before the Big Bang. Given that time began when the universe began at the Big Bang, we don't even know what "before the Big Bang" means.

I mean, how can something explode if there are no laws? How would a big explosion change the laws that were present before the explosion, or produce laws if there were no laws before the explosion?

The Big Bang was not an explosion but a rapid expansion of space. We don't currently know the origin of the laws of the universe.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Dredge, posted 04-21-2017 10:31 PM Dredge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 04-22-2017 11:03 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
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