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Author Topic:   Evolution is a racist doctrine
Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 33 of 404 (805184)
04-16-2017 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by LamarkNewAge
04-16-2017 4:35 PM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
I really wish we could have an honest discussion about why creationism brought us a fundamentally racist world and theological outlook.

We always hear about Malthus and "undesirables" but that book was published in 1798 so his readers would have been of a creationist outline of history mindset.

White Supremacy existed even before the 1800s.

Look at Benjamin Banneker and his issues. Pre 1800 he was trying to use himself as an example for why blacks had the intelligence that should warrent cause for the abolition of slavery. Evolution was a view that was essentially unheard of in the 1700s

I believe you are confusing the cultural phenomenon of the racism of the American South with Christianity which is doctrinally anti-racist. Southern racism grew up from the slave trade and the different status of the slaves from the masters which kept the slaves uneducated and primitive by comparison. This cultural situation got rationalized by supposedly biblical principles, although the Bible is really a strong agument against racism and has been used in all the abolition efforts. Wilberforce in England fought the slave trade and racism based on his Christian views.

You are right that evolution wasn't needed for Southern racism, but that doesn't change the fact that it does have elements that can be used to support racism. The very idea that all life is evolving implies that one form of life is "more evolved" and by implication therefore "superior" to others. This is no doubt a holdover from the view of human beings as superior to all other forms of life, but evolution also implies that there is a distinction even between varieties or races of species as more or less evolved than others, and combined with the assumption of superiority/inferiority already in play it could become a potent influence for racism, as it did in Hitler's Germany.

In itself the ToE doesn't define levels of evolution in terms of superiority, but in combination with that cultural mindset it can and did provide ammunition for racism. It is a fact that Margaret Sanger who founded Planned Parenthood used the ToE to justify her belief that the black races are inferior to whites, and her advocacy of abortion was basically a eugenics program for eliminating the "unfit" as she saw it, just as Hitler's Holocaust was for eliminating the "unfit" from Germany and his ideal world.

I agree that the ToE in itself is not racist. Nor is Christianity. Racism is a human cultural phenomenon, due to fallen human nature. Slavery is also a universal phenomenon due to the fallen nature, and wherever there is a racial distinction between masters and slaves can be used to justify racism.

ABE: When I was in high school in the late fifties there were lots of Jewish kids in my classes and I remember conversations we'd have while waiting for the teacher in one class, in which they often advocated some kind of eugenics program to improve the human race, make us all smarter. When I expressed horror they teased me about worrying about my inferior genetics. These were JEWISH kids just a decade away from Hitler's Germany where no doubt many of their relatives had died.

I also had a friend who got very involved in New Age stuff over the last few decades, in which there is a strong idea of "evolving" superior human beings for the future.

This idea may not be justified by the ToE itself but it's awfully popular with a lot of people, even very intelligent and educated people. I bet there are people here who have such notions in spite of themselves.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-16-2017 4:35 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Genomicus, posted 04-16-2017 6:07 PM Faith has responded
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 404 (805193)
04-16-2017 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Genomicus
04-16-2017 6:07 PM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
http://time.com/4081760/margaret-sanger-history-eugenics/

There may be better sources, not taking the time right now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Genomicus, posted 04-16-2017 6:07 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Genomicus, posted 04-16-2017 6:38 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 404 (805197)
04-16-2017 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Genomicus
04-16-2017 6:38 PM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
Yes, I picked one that whitewashes her.

Here's another that gives quotes from her: http://www.toomanyaborted.com/thenegroproject/

Why does she think the black community has a greater need for eugenics than others?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 04-16-2017 7:22 PM Faith has responded
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 39 of 404 (805200)
04-16-2017 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Genomicus
04-16-2017 6:38 PM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
OK I'll agree that the racist motivation is exaggerated for Sanger even if there is a tie between the ToE and eugenics and racism in general.

Let me restate my point:

Sanger believed in the importance of eugenics for eliminating the "unfit" from the gene pool, and it was part of her program that became Planned Parenthood. It's not clear how much racism might have been involved in her statement that the black community needs eugenics more than others.

That she DID say in that second link.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Genomicus, posted 04-16-2017 6:38 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Genomicus, posted 04-17-2017 4:17 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 404 (805205)
04-16-2017 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
04-16-2017 7:22 PM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
Many millennia?

And how would a denial of basic rights lead to a greater need for eugenics?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 04-16-2017 7:22 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 04-16-2017 8:17 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 43 of 404 (805209)
04-16-2017 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
04-16-2017 8:17 PM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
Poor nutrition, poor health care, poor education, poor housing, lack of basic services like water and sewer, all lead to infant mortality issue, underweight births, premature births, starving kids.

You are making no sense. For one thing I don't know what you are talking about. Where is all this going on? But again how on earth would such a situation lead to a greater need for eugenics? For one thing, macabre though the idea is, all those sufferings should have brought about some form of eugenics anyway, by favoring the survival of the stronger individuals.

Eugenics was the smallest part of the Planned Parenthood effort.

OK.

They were the pioneers on things like birth control education, prenatal health advice, nutrition advise as well as vocal opponents of the oppression particularly of white Christianity.

Do you mean "BY" rather than "of?" And it would help if you provided some kind of evidence for your claim. I really have no idea what you are talking about, what part of the world even, or what period of time you are talking about.

All those services you list are fine, what Christians object to is abortion. If they stuck to those goals nobody would be objecting. They could improve their services immensely by adopting the work that is usually done by churches: providing help with unwanted pregnancies other than abortion.

One of the great shames of today's US Christians are their opposition to Planned Parenthood, sex education and readily available prenatal care.

You of course misrepresent the situation. Christians oppose killing the unborn, also object to a lot of "sex education" which amounts to propaganda for sexual sin that violates the Bible and corrupts the culture and most likely ontributes to the abortion rate, and I have no idea why anyone would object to "readily available prenatal care." That's some kind of distortion for sure.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 45 by jar, posted 04-16-2017 9:56 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 46 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-16-2017 10:24 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 50 by Genomicus, posted 04-17-2017 4:19 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 51 of 404 (805246)
04-17-2017 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Genomicus
04-17-2017 4:17 AM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
dup

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Genomicus, posted 04-17-2017 4:17 AM Genomicus has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 52 of 404 (805247)
04-17-2017 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Genomicus
04-17-2017 4:17 AM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
rather, Darwinian theory was exploited by the white power structure to "justify" racism.

Isn't that exactly what I said in Message 33 (without the Leftist racist rhetoric of course.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Genomicus, posted 04-17-2017 4:17 AM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Genomicus, posted 04-17-2017 4:39 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 53 of 404 (805249)
04-17-2017 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Genomicus
04-17-2017 4:19 AM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
Christians oppose killing the unborn, also object to a lot of "sex education" which amounts to propaganda for sexual sin that violates the Bible and corrupts the culture...

And the patriarchy strikes again.

Well, I was explaining why Christians object to Planned Parenthood and the Bible is patriarchal, which of course Marxist feminists object to, but then I'm not a Marxist feminist. I think patriarchy is a good system myself, somebody has to be in charge, and men are really overall rather a nice bunch. Of course maybe I just lucked out with the men in my family.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Genomicus, posted 04-17-2017 4:19 AM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Genomicus, posted 04-17-2017 4:43 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 55 of 404 (805252)
04-17-2017 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Genomicus
04-17-2017 4:39 AM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
Um, yes, "whitewashing." That WOULD be how a Marxist feminist would see ordinary human fallibility. We MUST at all costs have a Villain, an Evil Oppressor, we can't just have ordinary confused human beings with a wide range of motivations, intelligence, understanding.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 57 of 404 (805254)
04-17-2017 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Genomicus
04-17-2017 4:43 AM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
Actually ALL sexual misbehavior is included in the commandment against adultery, including fornication, including rape, including bestiality, including homosexuality, all of it. You can figure this out by reading all the many examples given in the books of the Law that basically are commentaries on the Ten Commandments.

Violations of the command against adultery are very destructive of society, which really ought to be apparent to anyone who has paid attention to the cultural deterioration of the West over the last few decades. God's laws, believe it or not, are for our good.

But what does that have to do with patriarchy?

While fallen human nature does breed tyrannies, the true function of patriarchy is responsibility and caretaking, not domination.

Why do you need to have a Villain in your worldview?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Genomicus, posted 04-17-2017 4:43 AM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Genomicus, posted 04-17-2017 5:03 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 59 of 404 (805259)
04-17-2017 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Genomicus
04-17-2017 5:03 AM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
Actually ALL sexual misbehavior is included in the commandment against adultery...

And yet the Ten Commandments make no direct mention of rape, but do distinctly mention adultery. One wonders why an act between consenting adults was deemed more worthy of outright condemnation than rape.

As I said rape is included under the command against adultery and is spelled out in other places. But as for adultery it is a violation of someone's marriage, an offense against that person, not exactly a victimless crime, and as for unmarried sex pregnancy makes it a threat to the stability of society.

And rape IS discussed. Dinah the sister of the twelve patriarchs of Israel was raped and her brothers went and murdered the whole family of the offender. Tribal justice in those days was pretty harsh (the Bible is NOT condoning it, just reporting it), but I don't know what that might say about the incidence of rape. Either it would imply there was lots of it because the society was rough, or not much because of the threat of that sort of tribal retribution. And the poor sap who raped Dinah was in love with her yet and wanted to marry her.

And then it's dealt with in Deuteronomy 22 as well, the rape of a young woman betrothed to another, verses 25-26, where the man is sentenced to be put to death for it. In the case of the rape of an unmarried woman he must pay her father a fine of 50 shekels and must marry her and never be allowed to divorce her -- because he humiliated her and she'd be vulnerable to sexual predation and other humiliations and dangers after the rape if he didn't.

Although the context is a very primitive society I don't think we're left by these examples with a principle that is in any way tolerant of rape.

Violations of the command against adultery are very destructive of society , which really ought to be apparent to anyone who has paid attention to the cultural deterioration of the West over the last few decades.

The current "cultural deterioration of the West" is a fantasy. There is no ongoing cultural deterioration of the West under the ethical and moral standards of my generation.

Well, maybe after a couple more decades you'll see it.

But what does that have to do with patriarchy?

Rape is far more prevalent in patriarchal societies than in matriarchal or gylanic ones.

OK. But then I refer you back to the Biblical context above. The patriarchal Bible doesn't leave the rape victim without justice.

While fallen human nature does breed tyrannies, the true function of patriarchy is responsibility and caretaking, not domination.

Why should genital anatomy determine who is in charge?

That's not the reason given in the Bible, it's the fact that Adam was created first (See 1 Corinthians 11: 2-16). But men also are physically stronger and women get pregnant and have the responsibility for children if you want a couple of reasons.

Added Comment: If the "true function" of patriarchy is not domination, then one wonders why rape is more prevalent in patriarchal societies than in matriarchal ones.

Fallenness. Women came under the rule of men at the Fall, which destroyed the original role relationships between men and women. This consequence of the Fall is apparent in most nonChristian socieites still, particularly in Middle Eastern/Islamic societies. Christianity does temper the Fall, because Christ Himself broke the cultural oppression of women in His day, but the result isn't perfect, yet enough to be noticed in laws protecting and furthering women's rights in the once-Christian west.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Genomicus, posted 04-17-2017 5:03 AM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Genomicus, posted 04-17-2017 7:11 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 61 of 404 (805269)
04-17-2017 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Genomicus
04-17-2017 7:11 AM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
Marrying your rapist isn't justice, Faith. Executing a rape victim because she didn't cry for help isn't justice. What kind of twisted morality do you have here?

Well, y9ou are determined to make something evil out of a good. In the context of the ancient society where the rape victim would only have been further victimized if the rapist didn't marry her, punishing him by death would only leave her vulnerable to more dangers. The rapist in the other example where the betrothed woman did resist was put to death, it was because she was going to have a husband to protect her. It doesn't sound very pleasant to have to marry the man who raped you but in the context of that society it would have been far better than the alternative: he gets to go on living but has to take care of the woman he raped, and she gets the protection of marriage.

And, really, the whole point of putting both to death in the case where the woman didn't cry out or resist, in a town where she would have been heard, is that she wasn't being raped, so they both bore the usual penalty for adultery. Pretty obvious I would think.

You do need to try to picture things as they were in those days to get the principle involved and see why the decision is justice. In a society where a bunch of men could avenge their sister's rape by murdering the entire family of the rapist, and not be punished for it, things were just a tad different than In our complex society.

You are also making way too much of the word "adultery." It's the one commandment out of the ten that deals with sexual sins of all kinds, it stands for every kind of sexual violation.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Genomicus, posted 04-17-2017 7:11 AM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Genomicus, posted 04-17-2017 7:44 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 63 of 404 (805275)
04-17-2017 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Genomicus
04-17-2017 7:44 AM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
Judging God is really not a good idea.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 65 of 404 (805277)
04-17-2017 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Genomicus
04-17-2017 7:44 AM


Re: Explain the Bob Jones situation for starters.
I'm sure God knows exactly what is going on in the rape victim and has all kinds of comfort to offer, as well as justice, but he can't do anything to help someone who is yelling at him and calling him names. Asking for help would be a start.
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