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Author Topic:   Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Coyote
Member (Idle past 495 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 45 of 1311 (807476)
05-03-2017 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Dredge
05-03-2017 3:27 AM


Science and theories
People were clearly already well aware of the mechanism of natural/artificial selection and its effect on a popularion, so what did Darwin come up with that advanced knowledge of "evolution" (ie, heritable changes on a population)?

Piling up facts is not science -- science is facts-and-theories. Facts alone have limited use and lack meaning: a valid theory organizes them into far greater usefulness.

Robert A. Heinlein

Creationists can't accept the results of science when they conflict with their religious beliefs, so some creationists endlessly pick at the edges of science in an attempt to overturn or discredit the results. That seems to be what's going on in this thread.

But to discredit a scientific theory requires evidence...


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Dredge, posted 05-03-2017 3:27 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Dredge, posted 05-05-2017 5:41 AM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 495 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 67 of 1311 (807749)
05-05-2017 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Dredge
05-05-2017 5:41 AM


Re: Science and theories
Please give me one example of how Darwinism has made facts more useful. By "useful" I mean useful in a practical sense, ie, applied science - as opposed to useless atheist bedtime stories such as whales supposedly evolving from deers.

I see what you did there. The Heinlein quote includes, "... a valid theory organises (facts) into a far greater usefulness." You, on the other hand, are trying to slip in a new definition for "useful" being just practical or applied science. That's pretty dishonest.

The value of a theory is in helping us organize and understand facts. For example, the various theories of electromagnetism let us understand what's going on, and from there engineers and inventors can figure out some practical applications.

Coyote writes:

But to discredit a scientific theory requires evidence ...

As far as I can ascertain, the aim of the topic is to discuss the contribution the theory of evolution has made to our understanding of biology. I contend that Darwinism has contributed nothing at all to the advancement of our understanding of biology in any practical sense. Imo, all Darwinism has done is provide a pseudo-scientific creation story for atheists. As a tool that can be utilised by biologists, it's useless, as far as I know.

So if you ask me, the claim that nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution is perhaps the greatest load of bs ever told in science.

Nobody is asking creationists to be the judges of science. They are completely unqualified.

For religious reasons creationists choose to reject whole fields of science, and in many cases they do their best to discredit those sciences. Your posts alone show this.

Why should we pay any attention to such anti-science nitpicking?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Dredge, posted 05-05-2017 5:41 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by herebedragons, posted 05-05-2017 9:53 AM Coyote has acknowledged this reply
 Message 123 by Dredge, posted 05-08-2017 3:21 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 495 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 76 of 1311 (807771)
05-05-2017 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Davidjay
05-05-2017 11:26 AM


On open mindedness
Consequently evolutionists are not open minded.

And we are to take advice and criticisms from creationists? What a joke!

You want a closed mind just talk to a creationist who believes the bible is word for word TRVTH. They will twist, manipulate, ignore, or deny any evidence that shows their beliefs are wrong.

And then they have the gall to lecture scientists about being open minded.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Davidjay, posted 05-05-2017 11:26 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 495 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 96 of 1311 (807867)
05-06-2017 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Dredge
05-06-2017 1:38 AM


Evolution is a cult?
But you need to first realise that Darwinism is a cult.

Hmmmm. Looking up the definition for cult on the interwebs shows the following:

quote:
--a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
--a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
--a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing.
And with that your claim fails in all respects.

Those who study evolution do not venerate Darwin. It is religions who tend to venerate particular figures.

Half of my graduate school study was in evolution related fields, including fossil man, human races, human osteology, etc. I doubt if Darwin was mentioned more than once or twice--I certainly don't remember any such mentions.

It is anti-science creationists who are obsessed with Darwin! Because creationists match the definition of a cult much more closely than does any branch of science, they think that if they can disparage, belittle, and deprecate Darwin that it harms Darwin's theory 150 years later. (That's just another thing creationists are wrong about.)

So lets call your branch of creationism what it is: an anti-Darwin cult.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Dredge, posted 05-06-2017 1:38 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Davidjay, posted 05-06-2017 10:02 AM Coyote has responded
 Message 147 by Dredge, posted 05-09-2017 2:12 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 495 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 98 of 1311 (807871)
05-06-2017 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Davidjay
05-06-2017 10:02 AM


Re: Definitely Evolution is a cult?
Your posts are no longer even entertaining.

You have become a caricature of yourself.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Davidjay, posted 05-06-2017 10:02 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Davidjay, posted 05-06-2017 10:15 AM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 495 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 101 of 1311 (807878)
05-06-2017 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Davidjay
05-06-2017 10:15 AM


Re: Definitely Evolution is a cult?
So do learn to express yourself objectively Coyote, maybe go back to first year University and take non fiction writing courses.

Before you offer a lot of advice, perhaps you should go back and learn to spell, write coherent sentences, and maybe even take some debating courses -- as you seem to have severe handicaps in all three of those areas.

Oh, my BA is in English, and I have written a number of non-fiction books. (You lose again, eh?)


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Davidjay, posted 05-06-2017 10:15 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Diomedes, posted 05-06-2017 10:29 AM Coyote has acknowledged this reply
 Message 149 by Dredge, posted 05-09-2017 2:18 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 495 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(5)
Message 104 of 1311 (807884)
05-06-2017 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Davidjay
05-06-2017 10:44 AM


Wrong again
Evolutionists usually dont have websites because after stating that everything came by luck and chance, they have nothing more to add... one page websites are not that interesting or fulfilling or inspiring.

Wrong again!

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/home.php

(Don't you get tired of being wrong all the time?)


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Davidjay, posted 05-06-2017 10:44 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 495 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 140 of 1311 (808179)
05-08-2017 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by CRR
05-08-2017 8:25 PM


Re: The “Entropy = Information” Mistake
You realize that link you posted is from the Discovery Institute, right?

That is the organization that is responsible for the Wedge Document. Here is a link that describes that document:

https://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com/...e-wedge-document

and here is the full Wedge Document:

https://ncse.com/creationism/general/wedge-document

Here are some quotes from the document:

quote:
Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions.

To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God.

To see intelligent design theory as the dominant perspective in science.


In other words, they are advocating that science as we know it be destroyed and replaced by science in the furtherance of a particular religious belief.

I can see why you might post a link from that organization, but I wouldn't trust them if they said the sun rises in the east--I'd want to see it for myself.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by CRR, posted 05-08-2017 8:25 PM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by CRR, posted 05-09-2017 1:24 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 495 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 190 of 1311 (808687)
05-12-2017 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Dredge
05-12-2017 5:03 AM


The bottom line is, biology doesn't need Darwinism - only atheists do.

On the contrary--creationists absolutely need "Darwinism."

It gives them something to bitch and moan about...


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Dredge, posted 05-12-2017 5:03 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 495 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 195 of 1311 (808876)
05-14-2017 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Dredge
05-14-2017 5:13 AM


Bones
I like the way some paleontologists take a few bones and construct a entire creature out it - maybe even a "transitional". No doubt about it, evolutionists' devotion to scientific rigour is admirable.

When you spend your whole career studying bones you can do things like that.

Sure, it amazes the rubes who don't know anything about bones, but that's just a fringe benefit!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Dredge, posted 05-14-2017 5:13 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Dredge, posted 05-16-2017 6:28 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 495 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 197 of 1311 (808895)
05-14-2017 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Dredge
05-14-2017 5:05 AM


Darwinism doesn't advance any science in any way; and since it is only theorising, it doesn't qualify as true knowledge.

You need to look up definitions of terms used in science. Your ignorance of those terms is blatant. And it does not advance your argument when we can see such obvious mistakes.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Dredge, posted 05-14-2017 5:05 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 495 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 207 of 1311 (809193)
05-16-2017 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Dredge
05-16-2017 6:28 PM


Re: Bones
Yep, and when you get really, really good at it, you can come up with Nebraska Man from a pig's tooth! ... or combine the bones of an orangutan and a human to produce Piltdown Man! That degree of scientific rigour, knowledge and expertise is possessed only by highly qualified Darwinist charlatans.

Two hundred-year-old cases is the best you can do?

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_nebraska.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_piltdown.html


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Dredge, posted 05-16-2017 6:28 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 495 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 222 of 1311 (809247)
05-17-2017 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by RAZD
05-17-2017 11:52 AM


Re: with fundamentalist creationist religions, biology doesn't make sense
You could also say that with fundamentalist creationist religions, biology doesn't make sense.

They have to deny, misrepresent, or ignore many other fields as well, particularly dating sciences, geology, paleontology, genetics, etc.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by RAZD, posted 05-17-2017 11:52 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Taq, posted 05-17-2017 12:01 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 495 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 247 of 1311 (809348)
05-17-2017 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Dredge
05-17-2017 7:40 PM


Intelligent design = creationism = creation "science"
He said the respective observations can just as easily be used as arguments for Intelligent Design!

Intelligent design came into being as a way to circumvent the US Supreme Court's decision against teaching creationism or creation "science" in schools.

Its a sordid story of creationists lying, and playing hide the religion.

From RationalWiki:

The term "cdesign proponentsists" came into being following the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial in Pennsylvania over the legitimacy of teaching intelligent design as science.

A crucial piece of the defense (pro-intelligent design) was a book called Of Pandas and People which was marketed as a science textbook for middle and high school children. During the trial, previous copies of the book were subpoenaed for review. It was demonstrated that, whenever previous versions of the book had the terms "creationist" or "creationism" or some similar form, it had been replaced in almost all cases with the terms "design proponents" and "intelligent design" in later editions.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cdesign_proponentsists

How dishonest can you get? But that dishonesty pulled the covers off the attempt to smuggle religion into schools in the guise of intelligent design. And it showed that intelligent design was pure creationism with the serial numbers filed off in the hope of fooling people.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Dredge, posted 05-17-2017 7:40 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 495 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 269 of 1311 (809742)
05-20-2017 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Dredge
05-20-2017 6:16 PM


Re: Useful applications of evolutionary theory and processes
Nice try, but all you're describing is microevolution. A creationist biologist could potentially tackle any task applied biology throws at him because applied biology operates only at the level of microevolution. For all intents and purposes, macroevolution exists only in the La La Land of theorectical biology; it's an irrelevance to real-world biology.

But you take lots of microevolutions (visualize small steps) and give it a lot of time (which evolution has but YECs don't), and looking back you can see macroevolution (visualize walking from SF to NY).

This is real-world biology, as opposed to YEC belief.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Dredge, posted 05-20-2017 6:16 PM Dredge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by CRR, posted 05-20-2017 10:54 PM Coyote has responded

  
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