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Author Topic:   Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 279 of 1311 (809772)
05-20-2017 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Tanypteryx
05-19-2017 12:52 PM


Re: Useful applications of evolutionary theory and processes
rather than just saying it was magic and the reason reality doesn't fit her fantasy is god wants to mess with us.

Ham and the AIG folks have terminology for folks who do this. They call the search and effort to reconcile miracles to mere ordinary occurrences that they can point to scientific evidence for as demonstrations of a "lack of faith'. I think there is something to that position.

Example describing that Larson DVD we spent so much time discussing in another thread:
https://answersingenesis.org/...of-the-star-of-bethlehem-dvd

quote:

This DVD attempts to give some scientific answer for why the Bible must be true. The Bible never makes such claims for itself, for it stands as propositional truth, and we reject it at our peril. The DVD attempts to bolster peoples’ faith by showing that there is a natural explanation for the star of Bethlehem, as if we doubted that it actually happened.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-19-2017 12:52 PM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 284 of 1311 (809783)
05-21-2017 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Faith
05-18-2017 6:27 PM


Re: Useful applications of evolutionary theory and processes
The problem is you guys have bought into a really nutty theory about those things and can't see the true situation for what it is.

There are entire threads devoted to why the "strata and the fossils" as actually found differ from what is expected from a Great Flood. Your response in those discussions has been to label things actually observed as illusion until somebody manages to explain them according to the Flood.

It would be hard to find a better example of a person suspending their critical thinking.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 6:27 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 527 of 1311 (812652)
06-19-2017 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 524 by Dredge
06-18-2017 6:26 PM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
No and no. But genetic informaton is a logical concept that I expect science will verify as an irrefutable fact one day.

Perhaps. Let's accept that to be true.

Then you won't be able to dismiss it as creationist pseudoscience. You will then also have to reconcile the existence of two kinds of evolution - one that doesn't require an increase in information and one that does

So what if that did happen. The creationist claim is that information cannot be increased. There are already logical arguments that the claim is total BS anyway. I will present one.

If a mutation for state A to state B decreases information, then by definition a mutation from state B to state A increases information. I have yet to see a creationist explain why one of those two should be impossible. The idea that increases in information are impossible is just assertion based on a gross misunderstanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

You have a long way to go to make your argument work.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 524 by Dredge, posted 06-18-2017 6:26 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 609 of 1311 (813369)
06-27-2017 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 608 by Dredge
06-27-2017 12:35 AM


Re: maybe we should cholera a new vaccine ...
What? ... You're comparing Darwinists' extrapolative fantasies to mathematics and physics? LOL! What an insult to true science.

I'm sure that everyone has noticed that you really are not trying to debate anymore. You've fallen back into just trying to ridicule your opponent without any real arguments.

Maybe it is time to ask for the check.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by Dredge, posted 06-27-2017 12:35 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 724 of 1311 (814621)
07-11-2017 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 723 by Dredge
07-11-2017 8:09 AM


Re: define "species"
First of all, it seems to me that you are making an assumption - ie, that the mutations are "new". Is it not possible that bacteria are continually mutating through a fixed repertoire of mutations?

How would that work exactly?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 723 by Dredge, posted 07-11-2017 8:09 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 737 by Dredge, posted 07-11-2017 7:47 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 742 of 1311 (814705)
07-11-2017 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 736 by Dredge
07-11-2017 7:31 PM


Re: Interesting question...
I wonder how all life on earth evolved from a unicellular organism without a process of common descent. The mind boggles.

Hasn't this question been asked and answered many times in this thread?

The theory of evolution allows that there may have been more than one path of evolution from a unicellular organism. That's why common descent is not essential. In fact, when someone says that common descent is not necessarily the case, that is exactly the same thing as saying that all life on earth did not necessarily evolve from the same unicellular organism.

That answer is something you should have been able to supply yourself.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 736 by Dredge, posted 07-11-2017 7:31 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 743 of 1311 (814706)
07-12-2017 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 738 by Dredge
07-11-2017 7:54 PM


Re: define "species"
The Peppered Moth case didn't involve new variations, yet is it described as "evolution"

In this you are just wrong. The peppered moth is one of the relatively small set of cases where both the specific mutation, and the date of its appearance are supported by scientific evidence. This particular detail has been the source of much discussion in these forums.

I find it amusing that you would simply assert the opposite without checking first.

There are plenty of other cases that have been noted. Most of them involve mutations that are dominant, and therefore could not have been hiding out in the population undetected. Also well discussed in previous thread.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 738 by Dredge, posted 07-11-2017 7:54 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 757 by Dredge, posted 07-12-2017 8:46 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 766 of 1311 (814792)
07-12-2017 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 764 by Dredge
07-12-2017 9:25 PM


Re: Funny -- not really
Talk Origins describes Universal Common Descent as a "hypothesis". So I was wrong to call it a "theory" - way too generous.

That's not how I would characterize things. You were insisting on a bogus definition of evolution over the repeated objections of most of the posters here, including the ones who worked in biological fields and were familiar with the subject. That was not generosity. That was just plain pigheadedness.

And of course, your objective, which I assume now you'll have to punt on, was to attack the theory of evolution by murmuring about common descent not being proven. Looks like that "generous" attack vector is also off the maneuvering board.

I'm sure you will dredge up something else. Can't wait.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 764 by Dredge, posted 07-12-2017 9:25 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 777 of 1311 (814842)
07-13-2017 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 757 by Dredge
07-12-2017 8:46 PM


Re: define "species"
The truth is, white and black P. Moths have always existed in the same population. Their frequency changes depending on selection pressures. Everyone knows that ... or should.

I see that Tangle has provided some additional information. I am curious as to what it would take for you to check your answer before posting. While I am aware of how selection works, I am also aware that mutations occur, and I wouldn't assume without checking that a relatively recent (the early 1800s it turns out) mutation was not involved.

Your peer CRR at least has not made the same mistake.

Everyone should know better than to speak repeatedly from ignorance, yet you do not.

Edited by NoNukes, : acknowledge CRR's post


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 757 by Dredge, posted 07-12-2017 8:46 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 809 by Dredge, posted 07-13-2017 11:29 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 826 of 1311 (814975)
07-14-2017 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 809 by Dredge
07-13-2017 11:29 PM


Re: define "species"
he potential for these "new" colours always existed.

Yes, there have been loci to which a mutation once applied, black moths result.
The problem with your assumption is that is known exactly what mutation produced these moths.

Saying "potential" is just a placeholder for you telling us that you haven't really got a counter explanation.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 809 by Dredge, posted 07-13-2017 11:29 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 854 of 1311 (815100)
07-16-2017 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 843 by Dredge
07-15-2017 6:24 PM


Re: Insecticide resistance
the medical profession says bacteria "develop" resistance

So what? What is the mechanism for "developing resistance?" What do doctors think that mechanism is?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 843 by Dredge, posted 07-15-2017 6:24 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 860 by Dredge, posted 07-16-2017 10:26 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 855 of 1311 (815101)
07-16-2017 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 844 by Dredge
07-15-2017 6:49 PM


Re: Interesting question...
I stated that the theory that all life on earth shares a common ancestor is useless to applied science

Seriously Dredge. Haven't you already acknowledged that this is a hypothesis? How about making the same claim about the theory of evolution?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 844 by Dredge, posted 07-15-2017 6:49 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 859 by Dredge, posted 07-16-2017 9:38 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 932 of 1311 (815404)
07-20-2017 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 930 by Taq
07-19-2017 4:40 PM


Re: Hypotheory
The Theory of Relativity also makes many other testable predictions about things such as time dilation. Relativity started as a theory, not as a hypothesis.

That's an interesting take, and not one I think I would agree with. What name should we give to an unconfirmed theory or explanation? At some point, Einstein had a bunch of elegant and satisfying math that embodied his thoughts on the equivalence principle. Yet there was very little confirmation. His math did make predictions which could and were tested. So at what point was his work a theory and why was it inappropriate to call it a hypothesis prior to the point of confirmation?

A true hypothesis is testable in the sense that it makes predictions that can falsify the hypothesis if the predictions are wrong. An explanation can be formulated from observations and experiments, but ultimately the explanation must explain all relevant observations. Special and General Relativity each met the description of hypothesis prior to performing the actual experiments that confirmed them. They were hypotheses before they were theories.

General relativity, in particular, was something even less than a hypothesis for nearly a decade. Einstein took a few ideas, the principle of equivalence, and the invariance of physical laws, and spent about 8 years trying to come up with a mathematical statement that summarized those ideas into a testable hypothesis. Prior to Einstein's finalizing of his equations in late 1916, GR was not even a hypothesis. It was not even testable. When he finalized his tensor equation, he had a hypothesis which has since been confirmed many times.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 930 by Taq, posted 07-19-2017 4:40 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1042 of 1311 (815760)
07-24-2017 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1031 by Coyote
07-23-2017 11:48 PM


Re: Let's call this the Genesis 2:7 message
Its been a while for that stupid food pyramid, but hopefully its finally being corrected a bit.

Nutritional science does appear to be a pretty poor representative of what science is about. Often the guidance of the day seems to be about as scientific as those back cracking guys (chiropractors). There is way too much bad information out the with MDs names attached to it.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1031 by Coyote, posted 07-23-2017 11:48 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1084 of 1311 (815901)
07-26-2017 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1081 by RAZD
07-26-2017 8:16 AM


Re: five reasons
Categories 3 and 4 probably describe most of the current Creationist posters here, although I suspect some folks of being in category 5. (Not naming names). That is purely my own opinion.

But 3 and 4 have some series areas of overlap.

3....Cognitive dissonance comes into play here when this affects core beliefs that are strongly held.

4...They too can be deceived (and likely deceive themselves), however they continue to present falsehoods even when they have been corrected.

Quite frankly, I am not sure it is worth the trouble of sorting out the difference. There is no way to get a rational discussion out of either group. Only folks in group two are worth engaging seriously outside of a discussion forum.

Within a discussion forum. I'd choose a category 4 or 5 occupant every time for the pure entertainment value.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1081 by RAZD, posted 07-26-2017 8:16 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1085 by RAZD, posted 07-26-2017 10:12 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
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