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Author Topic:   Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 276 of 1311 (809769)
05-20-2017 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by CRR
05-20-2017 10:54 PM


Re: Useful applications of evolutionary theory and processes
Microevolution allows you to explore the limits of the available gene pool; but beyond that you need macroevolution. Microevolution + Time ≠ Macroevolution.
But you are forgetting (or ignoring) the effects of mutation and selection.
And both the genetic and fossil records show changes over large stretches of time that qualify as macroevolution, although they were the result of many small changes (small steps).

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by CRR, posted 05-20-2017 10:54 PM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by CRR, posted 05-20-2017 11:20 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 280 of 1311 (809773)
05-20-2017 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by CRR
05-20-2017 11:20 PM


Re: Useful applications of evolutionary theory and processes
If mutation adds statistically significant amounts of functional information then it is macroevolution. Microevolution does not add statistically significant amounts of functional information.
But you have to consider the time periods involved. YECs tend to underestimate just how long a few million years can be, and the changes that can occur during that time.
If you have a few thousand microevolutionary steps over a couple of million years, and if you compare the first and last critters the differences could certainly be called macroevolution--though we don't tend to use that term as much as creationists do.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by CRR, posted 05-20-2017 11:20 PM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by CRR, posted 05-20-2017 11:46 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 300 of 1311 (809874)
05-21-2017 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Faith
05-21-2017 10:30 PM


Re: Pelycodus and typical evo delusions
I've proved the Flood hundreds of times on other issues anyway.
Your "proofs" have all been disproved.
You just can't accept the evidence provided by the real world.
Perhaps you should stick to the Faith and Belief threads, as you are committed to ignoring scientific evidence when it disproves your religious beliefs?????

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Faith, posted 05-21-2017 10:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 334 of 1311 (810019)
05-22-2017 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by Dredge
05-22-2017 8:47 PM


Dating (again)
But life on earth is only 5778 years old...
That is a YEC belief, one which is not supported by evidence.
See RAZD's threads on dating for the details.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by Dredge, posted 05-22-2017 8:47 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 382 of 1311 (810101)
05-23-2017 12:46 PM


Scientific theories (and data) must be susceptible to falsification.
If it is claimed that certain theories and data can't be falsified, then that's not science.
Its that simple.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by Faith, posted 05-23-2017 1:19 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 388 of 1311 (810113)
05-23-2017 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by Taq
05-23-2017 2:56 PM


Re: You don't get to define science for YECs
Please edit.
That was not my comment.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by Taq, posted 05-23-2017 2:56 PM Taq has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 397 of 1311 (810240)
05-26-2017 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 395 by Dredge
05-25-2017 11:34 PM


Belief gets in the way of learning
But there are other arguments that evolutionists make that I can't enter into, as I don't have the expertise to understand the argument and hence, make a judgement.
There are a lot of scientists in each of those fields who do understand the argument, the data, the theory and the scientific method. They can make a judgement.
But having come to the conclusion that ToE is the greatest fraud in the history of science, I strongly suspect that all their arguments are flawed - but I can't prove it.
Neither can any other creationist. That's why they quote-mine, misrepresent, deny, ignore, and otherwise avoid dealing with the evidence.
For example, I've brought up the dating issue on many of these threads. The dating evidence alone destroys the YEC claims and the idea of a global flood ca. 4350 years ago. RAZD has gone to great lengths in his dating threads showing how all the different dating methods agree with close tolerances. But as of yet no creationist has been able to do anything but try and hand-wave all that evidence away. (It hasn't gone away.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Dredge, posted 05-25-2017 11:34 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 408 of 1311 (810280)
05-27-2017 12:22 AM


Suggested thread title change
Slight thread title change:
Nothing in biology (or any other science) makes sense in the light of creationism

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by CRR, posted 05-29-2017 6:41 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 425 of 1311 (810406)
05-29-2017 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 420 by CRR
05-29-2017 6:41 AM


Re: Suggested thread title change
You should also look at all of the religious mythology that has been disproved by modern science.
The young earth and a global flood during historic times are two examples.
Except that creationists don't accept the results of modern science when those results disprove their beliefs. Instead, they do their best to discredit or destroy those sciences.
So yes, nothing in biology (or science) makes sense in the light of creationism. Creationism is anti-science.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by CRR, posted 05-29-2017 6:41 AM CRR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 426 by Davidjay, posted 05-29-2017 10:26 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 497 of 1311 (812381)
06-16-2017 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 495 by aristotle
06-16-2017 6:21 AM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
I have studied evolution a long time, learned a lot about it, and it is very much like a religion in that it is unprovable by definition. We can only assume that the organisms who survived where the most evolved, we can never prove this.
RAZD commented on your lack of education in science. This post you made confirms it. Nothing in science is "proved" and those who expect proof are clearly unfamiliar with how science and scientific theories operate.
Here are some definitions which may help in your studies:
Theory: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses. Theories do not grow up to be laws. Theories explain laws.
Theory: A scientifically testable general principle or body of principles offered to explain observed phenomena. In scientific usage, a theory is distinct from a hypothesis (or conjecture) that is proposed to explain previously observed phenomena. For a hypothesis to rise to the level of theory, it must predict the existence of new phenomena that are subsequently observed. A theory can be overturned if new phenomena are observed that directly contradict the theory. [Source]
When a scientific theory has a long history of being supported by verifiable evidence, it is appropriate to speak about "acceptance" of (not "belief" in) the theory; or we can say that we have "confidence" (not "faith") in the theory. It is the dependence on verifiable data and the capability of testing that distinguish scientific theories from matters of faith.
The biggest difference between a law and a theory is that a theory is much more complex and dynamic. A law describes a single action, whereas a theory explains an entire group of related phenomena. And, whereas a law is a postulate that forms the foundation of the scientific method, a theory is the end result of that same process. [Source]
Proof: Except for math and geometry, there is little that is actually proved. Even well-established scientific theories can't be conclusively proved, because--at least in principle--a counter-example might be discovered. Scientific theories are always accepted provisionally, and are regarded as reliable only because they are supported (not proved) by the verifiable facts they purport to explain and by the predictions which they successfully make. All scientific theories are subject to revision (or even rejection) if new data are discovered which necessitates this.
Proof: A term from logic and mathematics describing an argument from premise to conclusion using strictly logical principles. In mathematics, theorems or propositions are established by logical arguments from a set of axioms, the process of establishing a theorem being called a proof.
The colloquial meaning of "proof" causes lots of problems in physics discussion and is best avoided. Since mathematics is such an important part of physics, the mathematician's meaning of proof should be the only one we use. Also, we often ask students in upper level courses to do proofs of certain theorems of mathematical physics, and we are not asking for experimental demonstration!
So, in a laboratory report, we should not say "We proved Newton's law" Rather say, "Today we demonstrated (or verified) the validity of Newton's law in the particular case of..." Source

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by aristotle, posted 06-16-2017 6:21 AM aristotle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 498 by aristotle, posted 06-16-2017 11:04 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 499 of 1311 (812400)
06-16-2017 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 498 by aristotle
06-16-2017 11:04 AM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
So you agree that evolution cannot be proved to be true?
You are compounding your mistake.
The facts of evolution are proved.
The theory of evolution is the single best explanation for that given set of facts. And theories are never proved, but rather supported or disproved.
If you had read my definitions instead of looking for a cheap "gotcha" you might have learned something.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 498 by aristotle, posted 06-16-2017 11:04 AM aristotle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by aristotle, posted 06-16-2017 11:54 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 544 of 1311 (812871)
06-20-2017 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by Dredge
06-20-2017 9:40 PM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
But since a human is more functionally complex than a chimp, it stands to reason that building a human would require more genetic information that building a chimp.
But chimps can do a lot of things humans can't, so there is more "genetic information" around there somewhere to account for those functions.
Your job is to quantify "genetic information" in some manner that accounts for both differences and similarities, and produces a reliable total that can be cross-compared.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2017 9:40 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2017 10:28 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 549 of 1311 (812877)
06-20-2017 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 548 by Dredge
06-20-2017 10:28 PM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
What can chimps do that humans can't? My fragile, egg-shell mind can't think of anything.
Short term memory:
Chimps Have Better Short-term Memory Than Humans | Live Science
Strategic reasoning:
Chimps Are Better at Strategic Reasoning Than Humans Are
Strength and speed:
Chimpanzees vs. Humans: Sizing Up Their Strength - ABC News

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2017 10:28 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 597 of 1311 (813172)
06-24-2017 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 596 by Dredge
06-24-2017 12:42 AM


...many cultures in the ancient Middle East owe their folklore to the Bible and Hebrew folklore, not the other way around.
Epic of Gilgamesh - Wikipedia
Garden of Eden
The parallels between the stories of Enkidu/Shamhat and Adam/Eve have been long recognized by scholars.[23] In both, a man is created from the soil by a god, and lives in a natural setting amongst the animals. He is introduced to a woman who tempts him. In both stories the man accepts food from the woman, covers his nakedness, and must leave his former realm, unable to return. The presence of a snake that steals a plant of immortality from the hero later in the epic is another point of similarity.
Advice from Ecclesiastes
Several scholars suggest direct borrowing of Siduri's advice by the author of Ecclesiastes.[24]
A rare proverb about the strength of a triple-stranded rope (a triple-stranded rope is not easily broken) is common to both books.
Noah's Flood
Andrew George submits that the Genesis flood narrative matches that in Gilgamesh so closely that "few doubt" that it derives from a Mesopotamian account.[25] What is particularly noticeable is the way the Genesis flood story follows the Gilgamesh flood tale "point by point and in the same order", even when the story permits other alternatives.[26] In a 2001 Torah commentary released on behalf of the Conservative Movement of Judaism, rabbinic scholar Robert Wexler stated: "The most likely assumption we can make is that both Genesis and Gilgamesh drew their material from a common tradition about the flood that existed in Mesopotamia. These stories then diverged in the retelling."[27] Ziusudra, Utnapishtim and Noah are the respective heroes of the Sumerian, Akkadian and biblical flood legends of the ancient Near East.
Other biblical parallels
Matthias Henze suggests that Nebuchadnezzar's madness in the biblical Book of Daniel draws on the Epic of Gilgamesh. He claims that the author uses elements from the description of Enkidu to paint a sarcastic and mocking portrait of the king of Babylon.[28]
While not directly discussed in the Epic itself, many of the characters in the Epic also have myths associated with them with close biblical parallels, notably Ninti, the Sumerian goddess of life, was created from Enki's rib to heal him after he had eaten forbidden flowers. Some scholars suggest that this served as the basis for the story of Eve created from Adam's rib in the Book of Genesis.[29] Esther J. Hamori, in Echoes of Gilgamesh in Jacob Story, also claims that the myth of Jacob and Esau is paralleled with the wrestling match between Gilgamesh and Enkidu.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 596 by Dredge, posted 06-24-2017 12:42 AM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 599 by RAZD, posted 06-24-2017 7:32 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 668 of 1311 (814104)
07-04-2017 1:11 PM


Interesting question...
Its an interesting question--why do creationists so often want to meddle in science and quibble about definitions?
Its certainly not to benefit science.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

Replies to this message:
 Message 669 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 1:23 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 670 by RAZD, posted 07-04-2017 1:31 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 679 by Dredge, posted 07-06-2017 5:10 AM Coyote has not replied

  
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