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Author
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Topic: Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 356 of 1311 (810045)
05-23-2017 2:26 AM
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Reply to: Message 351 by Faith
05-23-2017 1:49 AM
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Re: You don't get to define science for YECs
Faith writes: THERE IS NOTHING UNSCIENTIFIC ABOUT STARTING FROM A KNOWN FACT. That's true, but first a consensus has to be formed from multiple observation and tests to establish what those facts are. Religion, by definition, does not have any facts, it has beliefs that are not shared by others of even the same demonimation and can't be sustantiated or agreed. What you call a fact, is actually an unevidenced conclusion. You've started with the answer and you're attempting to gather facts to support it. So you have to grasp at ad hoc pieces of information to make them fit whilst - and this is the worst error you make - discarding confirmed facts that don't. Inevitably you fail because nothing hangs together. This is NOT science. Not even close. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 351 by Faith, posted 05-23-2017 1:49 AM | | Faith has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 364 by jar, posted 05-23-2017 8:46 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 390 of 1311 (810129)
05-23-2017 11:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 389 by Dredge
05-23-2017 8:48 PM
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Dredge writes: think there is a serious disconnect between the evidence and the conclusion, but I can't prove it No you don't, you believe in something that is contradicted by science so you have chosen to ignore it that's all. Creationism as awhole has found it impossible to either produce its own science to confirm its own belief or disprove science's facts that prove ye creationism wrong. You're simply an anachronism - a throwback - in denial.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 389 by Dredge, posted 05-23-2017 8:48 PM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 396 by Dredge, posted 05-25-2017 11:41 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 400 of 1311 (810249)
05-26-2017 1:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 396 by Dredge
05-25-2017 11:41 PM
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Dredge writes: Creationism doesn't need to "produce its own science". Well it doesn't so you've accomplished that much.
In contrast, Atheism does need to produce its own science, because it needs a Godless creation story to make atheists feel "fulfilled" - as High Priest Dawkins says. Darwinism is a product of the psychological needs of atheists, and certainly not a product of scientific necessity. Darwinism is Scientism, and Scientism is the religion of atheism. Drivel. Science is done by people of all religious beliefs. Atheists make up a small part of society and a smaller part of science. This equating science and atheism is asinine.
Darwinism is joke science. Says the guy that thinks snakes talk, devils exist, kangaroos travelled to an ark in the Middle East and the earth is 10 minutes old. Grow up.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 396 by Dredge, posted 05-25-2017 11:41 PM | | Dredge has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 402 of 1311 (810256)
05-26-2017 6:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 401 by CRR
05-26-2017 2:14 AM
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CRR writes: Actually the Middle East is part of the post flood world. Actually, the Middle East has been there for for quite a while before the date of your imaginary flood. We know this to be a fact corroborated by multiple evidence sources.
We don't know where the Ark was built in reference to modern geography The geography hasn't changed but I agree you don't know where the imaginary ark wasn't built.
and we don't know what animals lived there. We know exactly what animals lived there- we have historical records and their bones.
For all we know kangaroos could have been grazing on the hills watching Noah and his sons at work. We know exactly that that isn't true - there were no kangaroos within thousands of miles of the Middle East.
The animals migrated overland, perhaps taking hundreds of years to reach their final destination. Oh my. A couple of kangeroo 'kinds' jumped off the ark and hopped a few thousand miles across a totally dead landscape devoid of all food, simultaneously reproducing and evolving into all the marsupials we see today, then hop onto a raft and navigate an ocean. A miracle at some point would make you look less gullible.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 401 by CRR, posted 05-26-2017 2:14 AM | | CRR has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 412 of 1311 (810330)
05-27-2017 11:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 409 by Dredge
05-27-2017 11:25 PM
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Dredge writes: "... whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it" - Jesus (Mark 10:15). Yet again, bumper stickers are not argument.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 409 by Dredge, posted 05-27-2017 11:25 PM | | Dredge has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 418 of 1311 (810384)
05-29-2017 2:43 AM
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Reply to: Message 417 by Dredge
05-29-2017 1:31 AM
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Dredge writes: All extant marsupials are endemic to Australasia and the Americas. All extant marsupials are endemic to Australasia and the Americas. Marsupial - Wikipedia Present-day distribution of marsupials.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 417 by Dredge, posted 05-29-2017 1:31 AM | | Dredge has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 473 of 1311 (811727)
06-11-2017 7:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 472 by Dredge
06-11-2017 5:23 AM
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Re: maybe we should cholera a new vaccine ...
Dredge writes: Darwinists vehmently insist that their beloved theory of common descent is vital to biology It's not vital to biology, it's simply a discovery that biology is organised that way. If it was different, we'd be saying something else. No-one except creationists are hung up on this.
and that it is eminently useful in applied science, but when one examines their claims, one finds them spurious and empty. The evolutionary process DOES have applications in science - you been shown some - but it wouldn't matter a damn if it didn't, it's major use is in explaining how life on earth developed over time. It's knowledge. It would exist and be just as important if it had no practical uses whatsoever. You realise that it doesn't make the facts of evolution go away even if it has no uses at all? Or do you?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 472 by Dredge, posted 06-11-2017 5:23 AM | | Dredge has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 492 of 1311 (812346)
06-16-2017 5:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 490 by aristotle
06-16-2017 3:44 AM
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Re: The Nested Hierarchy
aristotle writes: For discussion's sake, if there was a creator, why is it that you think life could not be created in this hierarchical phylogenetic structure? There's no reason. In fact that is precisely what the vast majority of Christians believe happened. The Catholic church says this explicitly. They accept evolution to the point of H. Sapiens, then inject a 'soul, - whatever that is. Alternatively, if you're suggesting that your god created all things in a heirarchy and also embedded ancient descendents within it in fossil forms in one moment of creation (including frigging the geological record), then there is no way of showing that you're wrong - except to ask why he'd do such a thing. (You'd probably be asked to provide the biblical evidence to support that claim too.)
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 490 by aristotle, posted 06-16-2017 3:44 AM | | aristotle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 504 of 1311 (812437)
06-16-2017 1:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 494 by aristotle
06-16-2017 5:54 AM
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Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Aristotle writes: Wow you assume very much! Wow you're sensitive!
I was merely asking why, if one did exist, it could not create life forms in this hierarchical way. And I said that he could indeed and that was exctly what Catholics are told to believe.
And planting fossils? Seriously? Don't try pigeonhole me as some idiot bible basher, Ok, just as soon as you show that you're not one.
I'm not claiming god buried the fossils to trick us! The fossils could just be older creations. And if you notice it was just one option - one that is routinely brought up here. So we can dismiss that one, good.
And why must it be in one moment of creation? Mostly because that too is one of the things that those who doubt evolution bring up regularly. Something about 6 days of creation or some such crap.
Why wouldn't it create something, observe, modify, etc. Over long periods of time He sure could. You can do anything if you're a god. The tricky bit is working out the difference between a god fidding with evolution and a natural process fiddling with evolution. We've found a natural process, so no god necessary. But if he was fiddling with the natural process, it's game over for reason. Occam would turn in his grave.
why do you assume the creation must all be in 'one moment'. Wow you assume very much! I'm an atheist, I assume nothing of the kind, I just played back one of the dafter notions routinely put forward here.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 494 by aristotle, posted 06-16-2017 5:54 AM | | aristotle has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 516 by Dredge, posted 06-17-2017 5:59 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 519 of 1311 (812601)
06-18-2017 4:08 AM
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Reply to: Message 511 by Dredge
06-17-2017 4:31 PM
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Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Dredge writes: Moot point. Why did God create spiders with eight legs ... the sky blue ... grass green ... jelly fish ... flies? Not understanding why the Creator created as he did is not a persuasive argument against it happening. Except of course the question wasn't why did he do such things, it was why did he do them all at once a few thousand years ago and make them look billions of years old? Is your god a trickster? On the other hand, if he did do it all a few billion years ago and then either let stuff happen on its own or guide it through a process, we have absolutely no way of knowing any different. The outcomes and the evidence would be the same.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 511 by Dredge, posted 06-17-2017 4:31 PM | | Dredge has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 520 of 1311 (812602)
06-18-2017 4:43 AM
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Reply to: Message 516 by Dredge
06-17-2017 5:59 PM
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Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Dredge writes: As a Catholic, I am free to believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 and completely reject ToE. Oh sure, the Catholic church is a very pliable organisation - why lose customers by telling them they musn't believe mythologicl nonsences that they taught dogmatically for centuries just because they've been proven to be wrong? But it's a very strange thing for a desciple of the Catholic faith to believe something totally different to its leaders. I guess you know best?
According to the widely accepted scientific account, the universe erupted 15 billion years ago in an explosion called the 'Big Bang' and has been expanding and cooling ever since. Later there gradually emerged the conditions necessary for the formation of atoms, still later the condensation of galaxies and stars, and about 10 billion years later the formation of planets. In our own solar system and on earth (formed about 4.5 billion years ago), the conditions have been favorable to the emergence of life. While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5—4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. July 2004 statement endorsed by Cardinal Ratzinger, then president of the Commission and head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, later Pope Benedict XVI, now Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI.
The Big Bang, which nowadays is posited as the origin of the world, does not contradict the divine act of creating, but rather requires it. The evolution of nature does not contrast with the notion of creation, as evolution presupposes the creation of beings that evolve. Pope Francis
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 516 by Dredge, posted 06-17-2017 5:59 PM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 533 by Dredge, posted 06-19-2017 10:26 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 537 of 1311 (812756)
06-20-2017 3:37 AM
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Reply to: Message 533 by Dredge
06-19-2017 10:26 PM
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Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Dredge writes: In fact, the dogmas that a Catholic must believe are decidedly un-scientific ... the Resurrection, Transubstantiation, the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, So you believe all that nonsense but reject science? What kind of lunacy is that? Transubstantiation - the belief that bread and wine are changed into flesh and blood; not figuratively but quite literally, by a chap in a funny hat lifting it above his head. Really?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 533 by Dredge, posted 06-19-2017 10:26 PM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 545 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2017 10:00 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 552 of 1311 (812891)
06-21-2017 3:31 AM
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Reply to: Message 545 by Dredge
06-20-2017 10:00 PM
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Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Dredge writes: I don't recall rejecting science. I love science! You're very confused aren't you? You reject evolution; evolution is science. You tell us that you don't know how old the earth is; science does. You say that the bread and wine are changed every day by priests into real flesh and real blood - literally; science says that they are not. You reject science when it contradicts your beliefs, that's rejecting science.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 545 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2017 10:00 PM | | Dredge has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 557 of 1311 (812938)
06-21-2017 10:44 AM
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Reply to: Message 556 by CRR
06-21-2017 10:21 AM
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Re: Talk Origins
CRR writes: Yes, dwise1, you're right. Calling Talk Origins atheist is as bad a characterising the Discovery Institute as Creationist. Except that the DI *is* creationist, that's it's purpose. Libel isn't libel if the accusation is true.
quote:
The Wedge Document, a widely circulated 1998 fund-raising document, laid out Discovery's original, ambitious plan to "drive a wedge" into the heart of "scientific materialism," "thereby divorcing science from its purely observational and naturalistic methodology and reversing the deleterious effects of evolution on Western culture."[9] The Wedge Document states two "Governing Goals": "To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies."
"To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God."[62]
Discovery Institute - Wikipedia And ever since, they've attempted to cover up their aims. Lying for Jesus.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 556 by CRR, posted 06-21-2017 10:21 AM | | CRR has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 571 of 1311 (813014)
06-22-2017 9:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 570 by Faith
06-22-2017 9:52 AM
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Re: Curiously, intraspecies variation is what evolution predicts
Yeh, and the earth is 6,000 years old, snakes talk, Trump is a credit to the USA, everyone should be armed and Noah had a boat. ffs.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 570 by Faith, posted 06-22-2017 9:52 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 572 by Faith, posted 06-22-2017 10:00 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
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