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Author Topic:   Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 583 of 1311 (813065)
06-22-2017 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 567 by Dredge
06-22-2017 1:00 AM


Dredge writes:

If he were alive today he would be astonished that so many people have taken the contents of Origin seriously!

I think you need to read up on your history. Darwin knew exactly how seriously his work would be taken before he published Origin, but if he didn't, he certainly would have been immediately afterwards. He started an eruption in both biology and religion that continues to this day - in a few minority backward-looking religions at least. Science, of course, universally accepted evolution over 100 years ago. Most biologists would be astonished that creationist ignorance is still on display at places like this.

What I do think he would be surprised about though is how accurate his ideas turned out to be; particularly with the corroboration provided first by genetics, then by molecular genetics. And, of course, the accumulation of evidence in both the fossil record and our understanding of geology and radio dating.

It's an enormous acheivement, but of course if it hadn't been him it would have been someone else. This is something creationist don't register; the ToE is a discovery not an invention. The evidence is there in the world for anyone to find, it doesn't go away just because some prefer a fantasy world.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 567 by Dredge, posted 06-22-2017 1:00 AM Dredge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 584 by Taq, posted 06-22-2017 1:33 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 587 by dwise1, posted 06-23-2017 12:20 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 606 of 1311 (813341)
06-26-2017 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 605 by caffeine
06-26-2017 3:00 PM


Re: maybe we should cholera a new vaccine ...
It doesn't matter what you say to him or how many others explain it, he'll still say it again in a week's time. He won't think about it, he won't consider why you might be right or even wrong - he'll just chant it back out again like an amen in his church; totally brainlessly.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by caffeine, posted 06-26-2017 3:00 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 615 of 1311 (813392)
06-27-2017 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 613 by CRR
06-27-2017 5:48 AM


Re: Kinds
CRR writes:

Kind - A group of creatures that were able to interbreed immediately after Creation.

And when was this act of creation?

I'm afraid I get very confused about all this because you creationists all believe different things and we never know which version we're arguing against.

Are these 'kinds' the same post and pre-Fall? Faith tells us that prior to this fall thing, all animals were vegetarians is that in your book too?

Creatures only? No plants, fungii etc?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 613 by CRR, posted 06-27-2017 5:48 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 617 of 1311 (813400)
06-27-2017 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 616 by CRR
06-27-2017 7:49 AM


Re: Kinds
CRR writes:

Groups of living organisms belong in the same created "kind" if they have descended from the same ancestral gene pool.

Well that looks like common descent all the way down to me.....


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by CRR, posted 06-27-2017 7:49 AM CRR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 618 by Pressie, posted 06-27-2017 8:04 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 625 of 1311 (813491)
06-28-2017 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 624 by CRR
06-27-2017 8:43 PM


Re: Kinds
CRR writes:

But first we will need to define "species"

This is becoming a Monty Python sketch.

Species are organisms that don't successfully interbreed. That's been the definition for a few hundred years, it gets a bit fuzzy round the edges sometimes because biology is not mathematics, but it's good enough for us.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 624 by CRR, posted 06-27-2017 8:43 PM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 626 by CRR, posted 06-28-2017 5:50 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 627 of 1311 (813499)
06-28-2017 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 626 by CRR
06-28-2017 5:50 AM


Re: define "species"
CRR writes:

Don't or can't?
What about organisms that potentially could but are separated by a geographical barrier?
What about organisms that potentially could but are separated by a behavioural barrier?
Chihuahuas and Great Danes don't successfully interbreed but are both considered to be the same species. How about them?
What about horses and donkeys that can and do successfully interbreed?

Don't. Or can't. Normally both. It doesn't matter, as Darwin - bless him said - 'we know them when we see them.' The vast majority are not contentious - elephants and daphnia are different species.

Tangle writes:

it gets a bit fuzzy round the edges sometimes because biology is not mathematics, but it's good enough for us.

quote:
The species problem is the set of questions that arises when biologists attempt to define what a species is. Such a definition is called a species concept; there are at least 26 recognized species concepts.[1] A species concept that works well for sexually reproducing organisms such as birds is useless for species that reproduce asexually, such as bacteria. The scientific study of the species problem has been called microtaxonomy.[2]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_problem

Are you going to fart around attempting to define your way out of every issue you have to confront because of your religious beliefs or are you going to actually deal with real stuff in the real world? Is this obsession with definitions all you've got?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 626 by CRR, posted 06-28-2017 5:50 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 629 by Pressie, posted 06-28-2017 7:23 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 630 by CRR, posted 06-28-2017 8:19 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 656 by Dredge, posted 07-04-2017 1:54 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 634 of 1311 (813539)
06-28-2017 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 630 by CRR
06-28-2017 8:19 AM


Re: define "species"
CRR writes:

Well that's alright then, so long as you don't tie macroevolution to speciation, since if you can't identify if it's a new species you can't say macroevolution has taken place.

Macroevolution is tied to speciation because macroevolution simply means that evolution has 'created' a new species - as we define them. The fact that you have difficulty understanding that evolution is a continuous, linear event, not the singular one of popping new critters into life isn't science's problem, it's yours.

You would look at an African and an Asian elephant and say they're the same kind, science says they're not even the same genus.

Elephas maximus (Asian elephants), Loxodonta africana (African savanna elephants) and Loxodonta cyclotis (African Forest Elephant).

They're obviously related but now so distantly that they can't interbreed. (Well one cross was successful in that a baby was born in the 1970s in a zoo, but it died quickly.)

I gave an example of two animals of the same species that can't/don't interbreed, and an example of two animals of different species that can/do interbreed.
As for kinds, well, we know them when we see them; just like you do with species. (sarcasm, in case you missed it)

In the case of the elephant 'you only know it when you see it' when you start measuring things.

The ToE predicts that closely related species will appear similar, sometimes so similar that that they can cross with varying success. The point at which we call it a speciation is not something nature concerns itself with, it's only our human need to put things into neat categories that creates the problem of which category to put them in.

You will find fuzziness at the edges of most modern species because they're recent speciations - that is how evolution works, all organisms are changing from generation to generation, it's only with massive hindsight that well can say roughly where a split actually happened - and then there can be battles abouts it.

Biology is not mathematics.

Actually I have elsewhere shown how we can infer that all cats, from tabby to tiger, are part of the one kind; and this is based on the fact that different species and genera of cats can and do interbreed. Perhaps we are actually on firmer biological ground talking about kinds rather than species.

No shit Sherlock - 'you have elsewhere shown' indeed, like no-one had noticed.

See above.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by CRR, posted 06-28-2017 8:19 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 639 by CRR, posted 06-28-2017 6:00 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 643 of 1311 (813596)
06-29-2017 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 639 by CRR
06-28-2017 6:00 PM


Re: define "species"
CRR writes:

I think you have just managed to conclude that they are all the same kind and that in this case the kind includes more than one genera. In other cases a kind could include a single species.

The taxonomy of organisms shows the inter-relationship of species in a logical and highly structured way. All your 'kind' description does is lump species together in an arbitrary way. 'If it's got a trunk' it's an elephant kind.

If you creationists got off your knees and did some work on this 'kind' nonsense you'd create taxonomies and cladograms that eventually produce something almost identical to those we have now. The reason is that biological structures, DNA relatedness and behaviours force you to do it - you can't do it any other way.

Is a tapir an elephant kind? How would you know?

How about an anteater?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 639 by CRR, posted 06-28-2017 6:00 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 652 of 1311 (813716)
06-30-2017 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 651 by CRR
06-30-2017 4:03 AM


Re: Kinds, how to find them?
Surely you can tell me whether Tapirs and Anteaters are of the elephant kind and why?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 651 by CRR, posted 06-30-2017 4:03 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 654 of 1311 (813757)
06-30-2017 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 653 by Taq
06-30-2017 11:51 AM


Re: Kinds, how to find them?
Taq writes:

Can you discuss this webpage?

It starts and finishes here:

"Because the Bible is the only source for infallible information, studying biblical passages greatly aids the identification and interpretation of baramins"


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 653 by Taq, posted 06-30-2017 11:51 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 657 of 1311 (814066)
07-04-2017 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 655 by Dredge
07-04-2017 1:32 AM


Re: A Blast from the Past
Dredge writes:

To extrapolate from variation in beaks in the same species of Galapagos finches to claiming mice turn into elephants or bears turn into whales is to expose the edge of sanity.

I'm sure you've been told that this is NOT evolution many times before. To keep repeating an error having been corrected on it is lying. When you do it you expose yourself as both ignorant and dishonest.

It's takes a special talent to believe such voodoo science.

Yes it does, the sort of voodoo that believes in talking snakes, resurrections, water into wine, demons, cherubim, souls and the everlasting pains of hell.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 655 by Dredge, posted 07-04-2017 1:32 AM Dredge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 661 by CRR, posted 07-04-2017 3:53 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 658 of 1311 (814067)
07-04-2017 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 656 by Dredge
07-04-2017 1:54 AM


Re: define "species"
Dredge writes:

For example, Darwinists can call natural selection "evolution" and still keep a straight face;

No biologists calls natural selection evolution. None. Stop lying and try to learn what you're objecting to.

Tangle will stubbornly believe the cult line that there are practical uses for "evolution" despite the fact that no practical uses for the theory of common descent exist.

Are you drunk?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 656 by Dredge, posted 07-04-2017 1:54 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 678 by Dredge, posted 07-06-2017 4:56 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 660 of 1311 (814069)
07-04-2017 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 659 by CRR
07-04-2017 3:33 AM


Re: definitions
CRR writes:

Well so far we have found that the terms evolution, theory of evolution, species, kinds, microevolution, and macroevolution, can all be clearly defined; just not in a way that everyone agrees with.

Well not in a way that people that think the earth is 6,000 years old agree with anyway - how could that possibly happen?

And as for 'kinds', you can't even tell me whether Tapirs and Anteaters are of the elephant 'kind' or not and how the decision would be made. Why is that?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by CRR, posted 07-04-2017 3:33 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 664 by CRR, posted 07-04-2017 8:25 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 662 of 1311 (814071)
07-04-2017 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 661 by CRR
07-04-2017 3:53 AM


Re: A Blast from the Past
CRR writes:

Actually that is pretty much a hyperbolic statement of what evolutionists claims.

Actually it's exactly NOT what evolutionists claim, hyberbolic or otherwise. You will find only creationists talk garbage like elephants evolved from mice and whales from bears. Because, you know, bears and mice are modern animals - as modern as people and nothing has descended from them. It's perfect example of creationist's total ignorance of what they're objecting to. They make utter fools of themselves every time they do it. This is not a trivial point.

It is believed that ~50 million years ago, Pakicetus, a land animal the size of a dog, was the ancestor of whales.

Exactly. So no mice, no bears and 50 million years ago.

So while it is technically incorrect to refer to mice and bears the intent is correct.

It's not just technically incorrect it's also deliberatly dishonest an oft repeated gloat exposing an underlying ignorance.

The variation of beak sizes in Galapagos Finches has been called evolution.

That'll be because it IS evolution. The fact that species change their form to fit their environment - and in the case of finches quickly too - is excellent evidence for evolution in action.

Species are not immutable, something your great great grandfather fully believed because he was told this by his priest whilst on his knees before his fiction - if he thought of it at all that is.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by CRR, posted 07-04-2017 3:53 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 665 of 1311 (814078)
07-04-2017 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 664 by CRR
07-04-2017 8:25 AM


Re: definitions
CRR writes:

That information was in the linked article. Read it.

That's a cop out. This is a debate site, we don't refer people to other sites to get answers, we explain in our own words what we wish to get across, quoting if necessary and referrencing the place we got the information from forfurther information.

I've asked you three times now to show how those three animals fit in with your definition of kinds and you've ignored me, so I can only assume that you can't answer. Biology is able to answer, why can't you?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 664 by CRR, posted 07-04-2017 8:25 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
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