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Author Topic:   Will Trump fail to build "The Wall" if all 7 border Republican Reps oppose funding?
marc9000
Member
Posts: 965
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 16 of 53 (807242)
05-01-2017 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by NoNukes
05-01-2017 3:26 PM


It is a gross mistake, in my opinion, to assume that any particular one of Trump's policies is popular just because a little less than half of the voters picked him to be president.

Further, there are the folks who voted against Trump. If we take the hard line that the wall was what folks voted on, then we would conclude that a little over half of American voters did oppose the wall.

You seem to have an equal amount of respect for ALL voters, as if you favor mob rule. That's not how the U.S. works. (yet)

Do you wonder if ~I~ have less respect for inner city mobs who are herded like cattle to voting places, and told to vote for Democrats so they'll get more free stuff? Or for the California voters, the ONLY ones who tipped the scales so that a slight majority voted against Trump? If you're not sure, just ask!

With regard to the popularity of a "pathway to citizenship", you can find information about that yourself. No need to rely on LamarkNewAge. The polls I have seen suggest that the majority of Republicans support a 'pathway to citizenship'

Republican special interests, not Republican voters. Trump didn't campaign at all on "pathways to citizenship". Republican special interests have ways of skewing polls, especially with a rabid anti-Trump news media to help them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by NoNukes, posted 05-01-2017 3:26 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by NoNukes, posted 05-01-2017 6:28 PM marc9000 has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.8


(3)
Message 17 of 53 (807245)
05-01-2017 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
05-01-2017 8:21 AM


Re: Two separate political worlds
Faith writes:

American politics these days, and perhaps European as well, seems to be divided into two entirely separated spheres that have little or no communication between them.

Indeed. The two spheres are the Sphere of Facts and the Sphere of Conservatives.

We all know what the wall is all about, it's about basic racism against Hispanics. No one seems [to be worried] about the majority of illegal aliens who aren't crossing our southern border since they are mostly white.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 05-01-2017 8:21 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.8


(3)
Message 18 of 53 (807246)
05-01-2017 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by PaulK
05-01-2017 8:52 AM


Re: Two separate political worlds
PaulK writes:


Here's something to think about. A good stretch of the border between the U.S. And Mexico runs down the middle of the Rio Grande. Where would the wall be built ?

The northern border of Texas.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by PaulK, posted 05-01-2017 8:52 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


(5)
Message 19 of 53 (807247)
05-01-2017 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
05-01-2017 8:21 AM


Re: Two separate political worlds
Concerning the Wall, since for some strange reason this is opposed by a lot of Democrats and Republicans both...

It's not opposed for "some strange reason." It's just that a lot of us are, quite frankly, sick and tired of this anti-Latinx racism and irrational denigration of undocumented immigrants -- all hiding under the veneer of national security or some such unfettered nonsense. You just need to read some of Ann Coulter's books to see that this really is about racism and the knee-jerk fear of the United States becoming largely non-white.

Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 05-01-2017 8:21 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by JonF, posted 05-01-2017 7:58 PM Genomicus has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 20 of 53 (807249)
05-01-2017 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by marc9000
05-01-2017 5:10 PM


You seem to have an equal amount of respect for ALL voters, as if you favor mob rule. That's not how the U.S. works. (yet)

Given that the question is about Trump being elected, something that is based on voters only, then it makes sense to talk about how people voted. I am not going to question the wisdom of your comment. I will point out that your disrespect for some voters is irrelevant. I'm not trying to get you to change your opinion. I'm just pointing out that your own opinion on these particular issues (the wall, and path to citizenship) does not match with the majority of even Trump voters.

Republican special interests, not Republican voters.

Wrong again. The polls are about what voters think. The polls I cited where from "The Hill". I don't expect you to accept that; you can do your own research to figure out where the general opinion lies. At least you might do that if you weren't just citing your own opinion.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by marc9000, posted 05-01-2017 5:10 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by marc9000, posted 05-01-2017 7:05 PM NoNukes has responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 965
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 21 of 53 (807250)
05-01-2017 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by NoNukes
05-01-2017 6:28 PM


Given that the question is about Trump being elected, something that is based on voters only,

"Voters only", not the electoral college?

I will point out that your disrespect for some voters is irrelevant.

The process of the electoral college can be even worse than me, when it comes to disregarding mob votes.

Wrong again. The polls are about what voters think. The polls I cited where from "The Hill". I don't expect you to accept that; you can do your own research to figure out where the general opinion lies. At least you might do that if you weren't just citing your own opinion.

The general opinion was decided last November. The Constitution makes no statement about polls. I'm glad the election wasn't decided on polls, or Hillary would have won by a landslide.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by NoNukes, posted 05-01-2017 6:28 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by NoNukes, posted 05-01-2017 9:20 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 4484
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 22 of 53 (807255)
05-01-2017 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Genomicus
05-01-2017 6:23 PM


Re: Two separate political worlds
And it's an incredibly stupid "solution" to their made-up problem.

Even if there was a problem a wall wouldn't solve it.

I can buy a 60 foot ladder on Amazon. And some of those many tunnels are darned impressive.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Genomicus, posted 05-01-2017 6:23 PM Genomicus has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1401
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 23 of 53 (807256)
05-01-2017 8:30 PM


Exit polls showed lots of actual voters answering specific policy questions.
I put in some key words into google and the state of Arizona came out ontop so let us start there.

www.cnn.com/election/results/exit-polls/arizona/president

Now Arizona is not quite your typical state as whites have a history of voting more Democratic than the national average plus it is a highly educated voting electorate.

To see the other states click on "Arizona" box (furthest left box out of 3 beside each other ) which is beside "President " box (middle box) and further right is "search by keyword " box. The other states can then be selected. The box is just above the bold black line Arizona President which is right above the exit polls data.

The first set of data shows that Trump won the Arizona male vote 53% to 40% but lost females 49% to 45%.

Since the data show that females were 51% of all voters in Arizona then that translates to a 4% Trump win according to the exit polls.

Trump actually won by 3.5% so these exit polls were pretty close (as they typically are infact quite accurate ).

Notice that the polls show 51% of Arizona voters opposed the wall while 45% supported.

Both GOP Senators oppose the wall as do the 2 Texas Senators.

( also 76% opposed deportation and only 18% supported )

Check it out!


Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-01-2017 9:04 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 24 of 53 (807263)
05-01-2017 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by LamarkNewAge
05-01-2017 8:30 PM


Re: Exit polls showed lots of actual voters answering specific policy questions.
I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this information.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-01-2017 8:30 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-01-2017 9:30 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 53 (807264)
05-01-2017 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by marc9000
05-01-2017 7:05 PM


"Voters only", not the electoral college?

Here is the original exchange. You tell me if the electoral college is the least bit relevant in the context of that exchange.

LNA writes:

Trump started his presidency with a nation strongly opposed to his immigration policy (upwards of 80% support a pathway to citizenship as opposed to deportation while exit polls showed that 54% of American voters opposed The Wall)

marc9000 writes:

I don't know where you get this stuff from, if it were anywhere near true, Trump wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the presidency.

Quite obviously you were disputing the opinions of voters as expressed by LNA and not the electoral college result. But once called on your statement you try to move the goal posts into some other direction.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by marc9000, posted 05-01-2017 7:05 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1401
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 26 of 53 (807266)
05-01-2017 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by New Cat's Eye
05-01-2017 9:04 PM


Re: Exit polls showed lots of actual voters answering specific policy questions.
Have you been following the discussion?

Faith figured out that someone has views (relative to what one assumes that the American people think about The Wall) greatly at odds with the actual factual situation.

They find it hard to believe that 54% of American voters opposed The Wall.

The data tell us one thing (as I showed) but Faith feels that logic alone contradicts the Exit Polls.

The logic is that since Trump is President then the voters simply must agree with him when he proposed The Wall.

I would respond with a point that he only got 46.1% of the vote so 54% opposing his candidacy would be 100% consistent with the same 54% that opposed The Wall.

You ask what you can do with the data from Arizona. The exit polling data show us not only what the actual voters thought about the specific immigration/The Wall policies, but also which candidates the specific voters (specific to their support or opposition of specific immigration policy including The Wall )supported and it goes into archaeological detail.

Also be aware that 51% opposed The Wall in Arizona which happened to match the percentage of voters who voted against Trump.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-01-2017 9:04 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-02-2017 11:21 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 53 (807337)
05-02-2017 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by LamarkNewAge
05-01-2017 9:30 PM


Re: Exit polls showed lots of actual voters answering specific policy questions.
Have you been following the discussion?

Yes but you posted a general reply and didn't quote anyone, so pardon me for just seeing random data posted.

Faith figured out that someone has views (relative to what one assumes that the American people think about The Wall) greatly at odds with the actual factual situation.

They find it hard to believe that 54% of American voters opposed The Wall.

The data tell us one thing (as I showed) but Faith feels that logic alone contradicts the Exit Polls.

Exit Polls don't tell you the factual situation on what Americans in general think. They tell you what Americans who answer Exit Polls think.

Trump supporters aren't the Exit-Poll type, so I would expect the results to be skewed.

The logic is that since Trump is President then the voters simply must agree with him when he proposed The Wall.

Well that's just bad logic.

I would respond with a point that he only got 46.1% of the vote so 54% opposing his candidacy would be 100% consistent with the same 54% that opposed The Wall.

What a coincidence.

You ask what you can do with the data from Arizona. The exit polling data show us not only what the actual voters thought about the specific immigration/The Wall policies,

I think you're putting too much faith in the exit polls. It's based on 1729 respondants. There's 5.5 million people in Arizona.

You're assuming that 0.03% of the population accurately reflects the whole group. I don't think it does because, as I said, Trump supporters aren't the Exit-Poll type.

Also be aware that 51% opposed The Wall in Arizona which happened to match the percentage of voters who voted against Trump.

Color me unimpressed - that seems to be a mere coincidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-01-2017 9:30 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-02-2017 8:40 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 53 (807362)
05-02-2017 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by marc9000
05-01-2017 4:59 PM


Re: Two separate political worlds
What do you think of the El Chapo Act?

What I'd like to know is, where is that money right now? Does the U.S. government have it? Does Mexico have it? Is it spent already? If so, what will it be spent on? I'd expect these answers to be on the news, prominently. But with today's news, fat chance.

Sounds good on paper, though I can't really read through that site right now. Good questions.

Every day I wish I was dead, for at least part of the day after reading the news -- or a political thread at EvC. I usually find some reason to prefer to stay alive but it's touch and go these days. And I worry about the deluded people too. If this isn't yet the official End of Days, how far off can it be?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by marc9000, posted 05-01-2017 4:59 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Tangle, posted 05-02-2017 1:52 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 30 by Genomicus, posted 05-02-2017 2:12 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 31 by NoNukes, posted 05-02-2017 4:51 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 32 by Granny Magda, posted 05-02-2017 5:50 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 33 by Taq, posted 05-02-2017 6:00 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 34 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-02-2017 6:31 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6680
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 29 of 53 (807365)
05-02-2017 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
05-02-2017 1:29 PM


Re: Two separate political worlds
You've nothing to worry about - sorry, look forward to in your case - the end days were supposed to happen within a generation of your guy's death. Didn't happen. It's a couple of thousand years too late so I reckon we're safe. Sorry - I reckon you'll have to live with your disappointment like all the 'end of the word is nigh' loons that went before you.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 05-02-2017 1:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 30 of 53 (807366)
05-02-2017 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
05-02-2017 1:29 PM


Re: Two separate political worlds
Every day I wish I was dead, for at least part of the day after reading the news -- or a political thread at EvC. I usually find some reason to prefer to stay alive but it's touch and go these days.

You may be going through clinical depression. I'd get that checked out tbh.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 05-02-2017 1:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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