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Author Topic:   Y.E.C. Model: Was there rapid evolution and speciation post flood?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 282 of 518 (809632)
05-19-2017 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Percy
05-19-2017 5:15 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
We're arguing to Faith that there are more alleles that produce functionally different proteins with significant frequencies in the population than could have arisen since Adam and Eve

I think the answer is more simple that that. The argument is that more alleles exist than either the pair of Adam and Eve, or the collection of folks on the ark actually could have possessed.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Percy, posted 05-19-2017 5:15 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Percy, posted 05-20-2017 8:13 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 298 of 518 (810134)
05-24-2017 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Percy
05-20-2017 8:13 AM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
My understanding is that Faith accepts this argument. She believes that Adam and Eve together contributed at most two alleles for each gene, and that any gene today that has more than two alleles has experienced mutations, but she believes the alleles neutral, performing the same functions as the original two alleles.

Where neutral means performing the same functions. Let's pick at that a bit.
We know that the gene for blood type has three alleles and that the result is different types of blood that may form the same gross functions, described in a general way, but which are not compatible and thus cannot when looked at in detail be said to function the same.

Siimilarly, the gene for producing fur color in rabbits has more than two alleles. This article says four.

https://www.khanacademy.org/...ete-dominance-and-codominance.

The result is multiple colors of rabbits, and I would call the difference in fur color functional.

But it seems to me that the only examples that a Creationist cannot easily explain are limited. Dogs come from wolves so showing an increase in alleles for a gene is relevant. The Bible says that there were only two humans, so the possibility of more than two alleles is important. But for all other animals, there is no such limitation.

For now, why isn't the blood type answer a sufficient example?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Percy, posted 05-20-2017 8:13 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Faith, posted 05-24-2017 1:13 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 303 by Percy, posted 05-24-2017 8:27 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 300 of 518 (810136)
05-24-2017 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by Faith
05-24-2017 1:13 AM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
Both the rabbit fur and the blood types came up earlier in the thread. Yes, they are sufficient.

Okay.

I would add that this particular line of argument required proving much more than was required. We know that there are some mutations that are 1) dominant, so that they could not have been hiding out in the gene pool, and 2) directly traceable to phenotypes so we know that they are not non functional.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Faith, posted 05-24-2017 1:13 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 312 of 518 (810172)
05-24-2017 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by Percy
05-24-2017 8:27 AM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
don't think either blood type or rabbit fur color proves multiple functional new alleles have come about, because multiple genes must be involved.

For a lot of traits, yes. But for blood type, and the particular rabbit gene in question, no. Human blood type, in particular, is determined by a single gene with three alleles. Period.

The real question for blood type is why three is sufficient. Four would be required.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Percy, posted 05-24-2017 8:27 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Taq, posted 05-24-2017 6:02 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 315 by Percy, posted 05-25-2017 7:46 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 318 of 518 (810210)
05-25-2017 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by Percy
05-25-2017 7:46 AM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
I think more than just one gene must be at work, because the Wikipedia article on Blood Type says that "33 blood-group systems have been identified, including the ABO and Rh systems.

The ABO gene is a single gene with only three alleles. Perhaps this direct statement will clear up the confusion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABO_(gene)

quote:
he ABO gene resides on chromosome 9 at the band 9q34.2 and contains 7 exons.[4] This gene encodes three alleles: the A allele produces α1,3-N-acetylgalactosamine transferase (GTA); the B allele encodes α1,3-galactosaminyl transferase (GTB); and the O allele lacks both enzymatic activities because of the frameshift caused by a deletion of guanine-258 in the gene which corresponds to a region near the N-terminus of the protein.[7][8] This results in a frameshift mutation and translation of an almost entirely different protein that is unable to modify oligosaccharides which end in fucose linked to galactose.[9] Remarkably, the difference between the A and B glycosyltransferase enzymes is only four amino acids (Arg/Gly-176, Gly/Ser-235, Leu/Met-266, and Gly/Ala-268).[9][8] Other minor alleles have been found for this gene.[4]

Edited by NoNukes, : terminology correction.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Percy, posted 05-25-2017 7:46 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 319 of 518 (810214)
05-25-2017 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Percy
05-24-2017 9:29 AM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
I can't pin it down in detail for rabbits, but skin/hair color in humans is governed by many genes, so the same must be true of other mammals.

I provided a reference for this before. Since the reference (khanacademy) was possibly not a persuasive one, I will provide a second one here:

http://www.thenaturetrail.com/...nchilla-sable-himalayan-rew

quote:
Although there are five main color genes that determine the color of a rabbit’s fur, the c-series of genes is called the “color gene.” The color gene, which controls where and how much color will be expressed rather than which color will be expressed, is definitely one of the most difficult to understand. The first complication is that there are more variations of this gene than of most color genes. Another complication is that some genes are incompletely dominant over others. But in spite of its complications, genes at the C-locus is one of the most fascinating to work with.

So there are multiple genes that affect color, but among those genes, the functionality of the c gene and its affect on how the color is expressed is well known. So you have a point regarding the system for determining fur color, and yet we still have an example to discuss. Namely, a single gene controlling an easily visible phenotypic parameter with multiple alleles at a single location. Five alleles for that particular gene have been identified.

Given that, I don't really care whether or not Faith was serious about accepting the example. Again if I were arguing the other side, I would point out that there are no real limits to how many rabbits were specially created so there is not a hard limit of only four total alleles for a gene as there is for humans. Perhaps for the sake of this argument, human examples are best.

My argument for the ABO gene being a further example is similar. Even if ABO is not the complete picture for blood type, that gene does have a definite and functional expression on human phenotype and accordingly is a legitimate example of a gene with more than two alleles.

From wikipedia.

quote:
ABO blood types are also present in some other animals, for example rodents and apes, such as chimpanzees, bonobos, and gorillas

Edited by NoNukes, : fix quote tags

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Percy, posted 05-24-2017 9:29 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Percy, posted 05-26-2017 10:51 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 320 of 518 (810233)
05-25-2017 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by Taq
05-24-2017 6:02 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
This is yet another example of a human gene with more than 2 alleles.

I understand that. My question is why we would not allow Adam and Eve to possess four alleles between them.

I understand from wikipedia that there are more, somewhat rare, alleles for ABO type, so that the number in question exceeds even the three. However, I don't have any information regarding functionality.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by Taq, posted 05-24-2017 6:02 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 326 of 518 (810271)
05-26-2017 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by Percy
05-26-2017 10:51 AM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
Can we get a list of those alleles and their functions?

It was in the reference, but perhaps pulling that out is not a high priority given what we agreed on with respect to animals.

There's still the ark bottleneck. There could be at most four original alleles for unclean animals and 28 for clean.

There is also the matter of how kind is defined. It is not the same thing as species. Too much trouble to establish an upper limit for rabbit alleles if we can find human examples.

Faith should give up on her insistence that there were an original two alleles. She has no basis for the claim, and it just makes her position unnecessarily more insensible.

There is some basis. Eve was formed completely from material taken from Adam.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Percy, posted 05-26-2017 10:51 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by Percy, posted 05-27-2017 7:35 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 331 of 518 (810304)
05-27-2017 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by Percy
05-27-2017 7:35 AM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
But wouldn't God have had to change the alleles for Eve's genes, else Eve would have just been a clone of Adam?

Would God have had to change the alleles for blood type to accomplish that? What is the advantage of having multiple blood types in a Land of Perfection? In fact, would not something like multiple Rh factors among a closed population just create more problems than having diverse Rh factors would help?

Obviously, some changes were made, but making Eve a non-clone does not require new alleles for every single gene.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Percy, posted 05-27-2017 7:35 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 336 of 518 (810655)
05-31-2017 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by Faith
05-30-2017 5:14 PM


Re: rough ponderings
What NN posted about the gene with three alleles for blood type, (plus a few other rarer alleles) suggests to me that A and B were the originals and that O is a mutation -- a "frameshift" -- that happens to have a positive enough effect to be considered a true variant, but it's one of those I'd consider to be likely a fluke. In NNs post he describes it as lacking functions that A and B have.

What if it were a fluke? Is anyone claiming that the blood type mutations are anything other than random with respect to fitness? In the basic theory of common descent, are mutations described as anything that happens with a purpose?

Yes. Mutations are relatively rare. But the mutations that separate humans from other primates are not even claimed to be all beneficial. Humans are no longer able to fit in the niches that other primates occupy. We are weak, nearly hairless, with limbs poorly suited for climbing. While we do have advantages, some of those advantages, like dexterity, have clearly come as trade-offs between suitability for our hands and feet to perform other tasks.

In short, I don't think your current line of argument places much of an impediment on the theory of evolution.

he extra alleles for rabbit fur color are obviously superfluous since the existing genes are certainly sufficient to vary the color in many different ways. So the extras are mutations that are sort of akin to neutral mutations but do produce some difference, just not anything that could be considered necessary.

This turns out to be complete double talk. The four alleles in combinations produced markedly different phenotypes by varying visible elements that are not controlled by other genes. Not redundant, and certainly not superfluous. But even if they were superfluous, they would still exist and require an explanation of how they got there.

I also notice here you've moved the goalposts from different functions to "necessary" functions. Fur color differences are functional, visible, and obvious and controlled by the c-gene alleles. But nice attempt to sweep them under the rug with BS.

There are many alleles involved in the immune system some of whose function or phenotypic effect are known, but as Percy's charts point out a lot of them are redundant, doing the same thing. And a lot are unknown.

Yes. But several things should be made quite clear.

1. There are substantially more than four alleles whose functions are known for at least a few gene locations. That is enough that you ought to be coming up with a new argument.

2. It is unlikely that all of the unknown ones are just neutral, but in any event, you don't know and therefore they don't represent any argument for your position, particularly given point 1.

3. Folks are participating in this line of argument are ceding a great deal of territory to you that need not be yielded. It is sufficient that an allele code a new protein for the allele to be distinct from the others. There are actually an enormous number of alleles that have arisen for some gene locations. Whether or not that new protein is neutral or beneficial is partly a function of the environment as well as the structure and activity of the new protein. Calling mutations neutral or even beneficial without stating the environment in which you made the evaluation is not possible.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Faith, posted 05-30-2017 5:14 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by Faith, posted 05-31-2017 2:22 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 339 of 518 (810672)
05-31-2017 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Faith
05-31-2017 2:22 PM


Re: rough ponderings
OK, so the ToE actually imputes all the attributes of all creatures to flukes. OK. Nonsensical but apparently true.

No, Faith. Mutation is not the only component of evolution. Selection is the non-random portion of what attributes are found on creatures in a population.

But it ought to show at least that the YEC system I'm putting together has a lot more coherence and reliability,

So what? Nobody is claiming that evolution is efficient. Only that it works and is supported by the evidence.

Their existence by YEC lights is just the fluke effect of mistakes in replication that happen to produce some kind of unharmful effect.

In short, YECs dismiss reality. Even on your terms your theory fails to explain what we actually see. Namely some helpful effects rather than simply unharmful ones. You have your examples.

"Necessary" is simply a way of saying that the original genes are sufficient so the mutant alleles don't add anything. I'm willing to accept that the changes you claim are in fact true, but I still doubt it and suspect a redundancy of some sort.

1) Redundancy does not disprove the fact that genes have multiple alleles.
2) If there is some kind of redundancy, why don't you describe it? I provided a reference for the rabbit color gene. You are welcome to use it as you see fit or to find another reference.

But I have come up with a new argument: that the extra alleles are actually a detriment to a species because they scatter the effects among the population, which isn't a problem with something like fur color but is a big problem with the immune system. This is a brand new argument just over the last few posts.

Yeah. I saw that. The problem with your argument is that the efficient system you prefer does not exist. We do not as a species all possess the same immunities to disease, ability to digest lactase, resistance to UV radiation, etc. It's silly to dismiss what we actually see on the basis that you've imagined something better.

Your new argument is about what you wish happened. But it is not demonstrated by any evidence. Of course, that will not stop you from believing whatever you want. But it does explain why you cannot convince anyone else.

What is needed is evidence that these are really NEW proteins and not just fluke reproductions of existing proteins produced by the original alleles. But even if the DNA sequence is so flexible that it can produce a brand new protein by a rearrangement of its chemicals, it remains a fluke that can't explain what the ToE expects it to explain. Mutations remain mostly neutral, frequently deleterious and only very very rarely beneficial.

If that turned out to be true, so what? Is that different from what the theory of evolution actually anticipates?

This is just another artifact of the ToE. Environment has an effect here and there, such as with the sickle cell/malaria exchange, but that sort of exchange is just a tradeoff and not exactly beneficial even in the context of the environment, and otherwise I just can't give environment anywhere near the importance given by the ToE. Most genetic variability is purely the result of random reproductive recombinations unaffected by environment.

I agree that you cannot do that. To acknowledge that reality would be to give up nearly the entire game.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Faith, posted 05-31-2017 2:22 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 340 of 518 (810675)
05-31-2017 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Faith
05-31-2017 2:22 PM


Re: rough ponderings
But I have come up with a new argument: that the extra alleles are actually a detriment to a species because they scatter the effects among the population, which isn't a problem with something like fur color but is a big problem with the immune system.

This statement is nonsense. Fur color can be a survival trait for mice, butterflies, etc. The same problem exists. And even if there are multiple gene mutations that can produce the same coloring, that does not make one of such mutations neutral, particularly if the population had none of those genes prior. Total crap argument.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Faith, posted 05-31-2017 2:22 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Faith, posted 05-31-2017 7:01 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 342 of 518 (810700)
05-31-2017 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by Faith
05-31-2017 7:01 PM


Re: rough ponderings
The big problem with multiple alleles, again, is that they get scattered in a population. If there is an enormous number of them for one gene, selecting a fur color for survival, for instance, is going to eliminate a whole lot of other colors, and if they die,

What we are talking about here is 4 or more. Not necessarily an enormous number. Further, listing disadvantages is fine. But given that multiple alleles are what is observed, that situation cannot be an argument in favor of some other situation that is not observed.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Faith, posted 05-31-2017 7:01 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by Faith, posted 05-31-2017 9:17 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 344 of 518 (810704)
05-31-2017 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by Faith
05-31-2017 9:17 PM


Re: rough ponderings
But such enormous numbers have been claimed. But the same problem exists for the lesser number too, just not as dramatically.

Not just claimed. Demonstrated. But only five or more are needed to trash your idea.

Surely there are plenty of two-allele genes? Isn't the brown-eye-blue-eye Bb gene an example of that? What about skin color?

It does not matter how many two allele genes there are. Perhaps most genes have only two alleles. Just a few with five or more alleles (or three or more) ought to be enough to make you rethink.

You cited a notion of having a predator destroying scattered alleles as a disadvantage. But having populations spread across different ecological niches each exploiting different alleles is an advantage for the same mechanism.

But mainly, the point you are trying to overcome is the fact that multiple allele genes are actually observed in nature. Not just two and sometime more than four.

As for eye color and skin color, I would not pretend to be in position to sort those things out. Multiple genes, possibly they involve no more than a couple of alleles each. But where two alleles only exist, that only means that it is possible that the two alleles were present in the first humans. It may very well be that one or the other alleles is a mutant version of an original allele.

Something that is observed CAN be abnormal you know, and that's what I think all these extra alleles are.

You've already acknowledged that too many alleles for a gene (more than two or four) that are functional, distinct, and beneficial is inconsistent with your hypothesis. Whether or not such a thing is normal or abnormal isn't the issue.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Faith, posted 05-31-2017 9:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 1:00 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 346 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 1:10 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 347 of 518 (810722)
06-01-2017 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by Faith
06-01-2017 1:10 AM


Re: falling into place
It certainly is. "Functional, distinct and beneficial" is overthrown by the recognition that multiple alleles scatter in a population, which is a bad thing for the immune system and even for rabbit fur, even if supposedly beneficial in their immediate function.

No it is not overthrown.

1) In some circumstances it is a good thing. Both for the immune system and for rabbit fur. White rabbits fur is only good in some situaitons, in others it is bad. Just as black moths have an advantage in only some environments.

2) The multiple allele is not just a supposition. It is supported by the evidence. What you are doing is arguing that you can envision something better and therefore what we actually see is wrong.

Here is another example. A mutation that protects against malaria but is otherwise not beneficial is an allele that you would be completely useless if required to be shared by all humans. It can only provide an advantage if it can be selected for in some environments but not others.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 1:10 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Faith, posted 06-01-2017 3:38 AM NoNukes has responded

  
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