Encouragement From A Believers Perspective

Message 1 of 37 (808173) 05-03-2017 10:11 AM

Here at EvC, I have spent many years attempting to support the belief which I was taught---often to no avail.

I believe that God(Creator of all seen and unseen rather than storybook characters invented by humans) desires to communicate wisdom and encourage us as we learn how to live in this world. Critics often point to evidence and the lack thereof. It can be frustrating going around and around and getting nowhere---as if the merry-go-round never stops where I want it to stop.

What prompted me to start this new thread was a message shared with me on facebook. People whom I would consider solid Bible students send a message every day at this site, and I respect the wisdom that is gleaned from the Bible stories...admittedly because what is said is agreeable to my personal belief and expresses what to me anyway is an obvious extrapolation of the truth found in the story. I thought I would share his message today to start off this topic and get opinions and feedback from the loyal EvC peanut gallery. We Christians here at EvC are a Motley Crew--we rarely even agree with each other much except as regards to the living truth spoken of in the Bible. Only jar among us disagrees even with that. Anyway, let's get on with this.......

Here was one message:

Both of these studies are based on what is seen among the so-called "clubs" of Christianity as being quite unanimously common. Only jars interpretations of scripture disagree widely with most of the club interpretations. To his credit, he can support and back up much of his argument...but the main difference remains and that is why we have division among the believers.

In this topic, I wish to discuss what I have shared and why it is or is not "good advice".

Faith & Belief, please.

Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

Edited by Phat, : more specific

Edited by Phat, : editing

Edited by Phat, : Title

Message 3 of 37 (808187) 05-09-2017 12:38 AM

I used to suggest that I don't think the world is fearful enough of various things ( especially death ) and that more fear would be a good thing if it moderated radical and dangerous behavior.

I still find myself in similar conversations.

This is a popular topic, I must admit.

Message 4 of 37 (808188) 05-09-2017 1:01 AM

The million plus Queens immigration population is terrified and good Christians and Jews ( around the nation ) have been declaring themselves and their houses of worship a "sanctuary congregation " which will use their physical sanctuary to protect immigrants from raids.

No Muslim mosque has been brave enough to join the movement. They fear becoming targets of hate crimes and accused of endless other things if they join the movement to provide protection to immigrants.

But the first ever sanctuary congregation that wasn't Jewish or Christian finally emerged!

It was a very brave Hindu Temple.

See May 8 New York Times article Hindu Temple in Queens Joins Sanctuary Movement by Sharon Otterman.

All the dozens of other 100 plus Hindu, Buddhist, and Muslim houses of worship are still too terrified to join the movement, but the historic and courageous stand taken by Shaanti Bhavan Mandir makes for the first non Jewish, non Christian body of faithful to take a stand against the evil horrors the innocent must face.

The climate here in Queens is one of constant fear, but it has been the most spiritual atmosphere I have ever been in to see the community and vast body of elected officials come together in solidarity with each other in this battle of good over evil.

You can literally feel the fear in the air and it is fundamentally spiritual.

I ask for your prayer Phat.

The people of Queens need it.

Message 6 of 37 (808206) 05-09-2017 4:49 AM

Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha 05-03-2017 10:11 AM

The problem you have Phat is that your premise is just wrong. Billions of people lead content and happy lives without the prop of an imaginary god looking afetr them. I'm one of them.

You live in your own bubble and can't imagine how people outside it live. Western Europe is mostly secular you know. Scandanavia is 80% atheist but has the happiest countries in the world. Relieving yourself from the obvious burden of your conflicting religious beliefs would do you a power of good.

As, for your 'thought for the day' stuff, I'm afraid I couldn't read it. Just preacher's drivel.

Message 7 of 37 (808216) 05-09-2017 9:05 AM

Reply to: Message 5 by Thugpreacha 05-09-2017 2:23 AM

Actually the angels said it because they were awesome and scary in power, so that the viewers would settle down and listen to the message rather than fearing the messenger. Just like evolutionists when hearing truths from a intelligent design proponent. It sacres them so they attack the messenger rather than listening to the message.

Anyway, the people that teach fear the most are usually preachers as they fear their flocks might get personal faith and then not need them nor contribute to them and the preachers needs. But the Lord does say fear not, because faith is the opposite of fear. If you step out in fear on the principles of the Lord, they work.

You dont have to fear false science and false principles and false people, if you have chosen right and its the time and place, go forward in faith rather than fear.

Fear not true science, all science points to the Lord and his principles. Why because he created science, and Math. Dont fear math, understand it, use it to build your faith.

Dont let evolutionists and false teachers and preachers destroy your faith and your truths. Get to the basics and gain faith by experiencing and testing out faith in the real world. Leave theories to the geeks and the dreamers and the unreal. Ground yourself in real life and in real principles.

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.

Message 8 of 37 (808218) 05-09-2017 9:11 AM

Reply to: Message 7 by Davidjay 05-09-2017 9:05 AM

Faith is not some sort of magical defense mechanism when you are attacked. Real faith comes from the many times you have stood your ground and tested the Lord and the Lord has come through for you according to your real faith.

Its not trumpted up faith or ego faith or group faith, its real faith, in really knowing what you are standing on is REAL.

The word Faith to church Christians means in most cases very little, because they have never taken the Lord at His word and experienced the faith walk. They have never given much, let alone all to the Lord, so they usually (but not in all cases) are very weak in faith and so hide behind church systems and a very loose knowledge of what Jesus actually said or did....let alone experiencing these truths for themselves.

Message 9 of 37 (808219) 05-09-2017 9:19 AM

Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha 05-03-2017 10:11 AM

As with most religious ideas. I agree with the overall sentiment - that sometimes we just need some motivation to go and defeat the giants affecting our lives. But not the specifics as proposed by your Pastor

I am of the belief that these are not the only two options.

From my perspective, I would need to add some more context to your statement.
If you mean "can't do it without God" I would respectfully disagree. There are many who do just that.
If you mean something along the lines of "can't ignore the strength that comes from belief and communal stories" I would agree with you. I would just point out that such things can offer their strength just as well without the involvement of God. Myself, I believe in love and the goodness of the human spirit in other people. Such things are a bit more concrete than 'God,' and yield the same something-more-than-yourself strength.

That all being said. From my perspective, I still wouldn't say that my way is "the only" way. And I would endorse that you use whatever-way-seems-to-work-best for you. And I would ask you allow the same courtesy for me.

And now, into your Pastor's sermon:

I agree with everything up to and including this paragraph. I think the setup is something that most people deal with (some on a daily basis) and something that requires a solution or other avenue of help to deal with.

This, I believe, is a part of the problem with religion. Yes, we all face big problems. Yes, there are ways to go about tackling/mitigating them. However, religion doesn't stop there... it jumps straight to "this will definitely solve all your problems!!" Such a claim is flat-out wrong, and easily shown to be wrong and only leads to give people a false sense of security. Some people will have that false security tested to the level that shows the deception for what it is and destroys the illlusion, leaving them with less help than what they started with... from the very 'tool' they lean on in order to try and gain help. I find such things disgusting.

The proof that it is flat-out wrong: Some giants are bigger than Jesus. Or, at a minimum, there are some giants Jesus does not (or has not) overcome. Specifically, there are situations that exist that are destructive and simply more powerful than anything Jesus can do (or has done) to prevent them. There are many specific examples (cancer, abuse, rape, war, natural disasters, infant-terminal birth defects...) but there's no reason to get into them. The point isn't that we shouldn't fight against such things (we should, because sometimes we definitely can win). The point is that these things do exist, and there are times that they are stronger than us and that's not our fault.

People die from things like this all the time. Many of those people fully believe in Jesus to save them. He just... doesn't. Maybe Jesus can't, maybe Jesus doesn't exist, maybe Jesus has another plan.... lots of 'excuses' abound, but they all miss the point. The point is it's wrong to say things like "Jesus has already overcome the enemy" when it's clear that Jesus has not done so. Jesus allowing the enemy to kill certain believers because He has another plan for them is not the same thing as Jesus already overcoming the enemy.

The pastor attempts to hedge his bets on this issue by talking about burying the dead-snake-head in the ground because the poison can still hurt you.
If "the enemy" (the poison from the dead-snake) can still hurt you... then Jesus has not "already overcome" the enemy. The danger is still there, and we still have to rely on not-Jesus to mitigate it as best as possible.

When religion ignores this point, and people live their lives and run into such things and become extremely disappointed and let down... that's where the danger of this sort of we-can-fix-all-idea is a very, very negative thing.

And the worst part is... you don't have to forsake Jesus just to understand the fact that some issues in life are too big to overcome. Religion could easily take the stand that Jesus is there as a guide to help you overcome whatever problems you can, and mitigate-as-best-as-possible the problems that cannot be fully defeated.

THAT is a great message. And THAT message can be done religiously with Jesus at the helm (if desired).
The benefits of such a message is that it deals with reality, truth and honesty and does not rely on "selling a quick fix" to it's audience.

The rest of the message contains lines such as the above.
My point would be that Jesus Christ is not necessary to see victory over the giants in one's life (my life is a living proof of this).
To be clear: I do not have an issue with someone using Jesus Christ to overcome the giants in their life. In fact, if it works for someone, I would personally encourage them to use Jesus Christ to overcome their giants. My issue is with anyone who says that Jesus Christ is the only way for everyone to overcome all possible giants. This is easily shown to be false.

And, again, the only reason to promote such an obviously-incorrect idea is to promote one's own ideas for selfish reasons instead of looking to reality for honest resolutions to honest problems.

Again, I agree with the sermon's setup up to and including this point.
Like any great embellishment, it bases it's foundation in reality and truth.

But then we immediately run into the same error:

1 - No, it doesn't have to be Jesus to remove or mitigate this fear. There are other avenues as well. Some will work better than others for different people, because people are different.

2 - No, Jesus cannot remove ALL fears. Most? Sure, for some people. Even to the point of "all fears that most people will ever encounter in their lives." However... this is not the same as jumping to a complete ALL. There certainly are fears that Jesus cannot conquer (or, at least, chooses not to conquer). Or are we trying to say that no Christian has ever had a chronic, debilitating fear of anything? Such a claim is trivially not true.

And again, the real answer is that even Jesus can only mitigate certain fears and isn't able to remove ALL of them.
Just as every tool we've ever devised without Jesus.

Some people will work better believing in Jesus.
Some people will work better using other tools.

But nothing (including Jesus) has ever had the ability to solve ALL fears for ALL people.

Of course there are miracle-stories of Jesus solving huge fears for some specific people.
Just as there are miracle-stories of non-Jesus-tools solving huge fears for other specific people.

But to claim that anything (including Jesus) is able to solve ALL fears for ALL people in ANY circumstance is simply laughably false... and very dangerous to someone who believes it and ends up in a circumstance where such a method does not provide the expected 'catch-all' help.

It is much healthier to teach reality. Prepare for reality. Understand that Jesus might remove many, many fears... and help mitigate ALL fears to some degree... but cannot remove ALL fears. Such a lens helps more, and doesn't let anyone 'fall through the cracks.'

To summarize... I believe your pastor is trying to help, however he can. However, I think his naïve way of offering Jesus as a plan to help ALL problems causes more issues than it solves for the ones who really need such help. And that's a massive, massive shame.

Message 10 of 37 (808222) 05-09-2017 9:33 AM

Reply to: Message 9 by Stile 05-09-2017 9:19 AM

Sorry Bro, I have never heard anyone suggest Jesus can only solve a few fears and not all fears. For suggesting there are some things Jesus can't do, is surely limiting the ALMIGHTY. For by mere definition, ALL MIGHTY means all mighty and all powerful.

But if you mean, we humans have to avail of His power to remove fears, then I can agree with you, and that means any and all. Agreed ?

But the main problem is that people have not given all to the Lord and followed his directives in forsaking all to know all and know how to follow. Half timers have a very difficult time having faith because they haven;t followed the full time instructions.

Message 12 of 37 (808227) 05-09-2017 9:52 AM

Reply to: Message 11 by Stile 05-09-2017 9:33 AM

as nothing is impossible with the Lord.... but lets see where true faith comes from ...

********

Getting Faith is not some mystery, it is really quite simple. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God as the Lord’s WORD
says....Faith comes by hearing and hearing from the WORD of God. (Romans 10:17)

You can’t get it any other way. It comes from the Lord’s direct Voice or reading the direct words of the Lord through His
prophets and prophetesses. Or if you can’t read, then someone has to read it to you, or listen to it on a tape or somehow see or
listen to His literal words.Because just as his Literal Words brought the physical world into being, so only His literal words can
bring FAITH into being in our hearts. It is a real seed that only comes by hearing or seeing and then believeing.

There is no other way to get Faith. It is not magical and you can’t pray for more without listening to the Lord’s Words. You
can’t pray up your faith, you can only believe more of the Lord’s direct WORDS. and quite fighting it, just let them sink down
into your heart as the Lord said. For His Words are powerful and He means what He said, so just believe it literally, and you get
more FAITH

So sometimes you need to get off your knees in so called desperate prayer and turn on the lights and read His WORD, and
after hearing from the Lord and putting the Lord first, then surely more of our prayers will be heard and answered. Therefore
we all need to stop looking for signs and wonders to increase our Faith, and just simply read or listen and believe, and then
act on the seed of truth we have accepted, to see it grow. There is no such thing as lazy faith, it doesn’t come from us and our
inward search, it comes from our accepting the Lord’s words given to us all. I mean you name the category if we want
STRENGTH, then look up all the words on strength in the Bible, or go to an on-line concordance and punch in the word
STRENGTH, such as at http://www.khouse.org/blueletter

Ask the Holy Spirit to teach you and guide you, read what it says, and believe and you will get more strength. WHY
…because strength comes from the Lord and not ourselves. He is our strength and its not in our own might. Quite being macho
even if you are feminine, rely on the Lord and believe and you get STRENGTH.

And so it is with every subject, if you want it. Read about it, believe it, act on it, and you have it. Don't worry about your
inadequacies , overcome them by gaining Faith in the Lord.. It’s right before all of our eyes, so we all are responsible for our own
condition or lack of conditioning. So let’s get more FAITH and progress and get stronger in the Lord and in His LOVE, by
listening to His Voice through His WORDS.

Believe in the Lord and miracles can happen.....

Message 14 of 37 (808240) 05-09-2017 11:05 AM

Reply to: Message 13 by jar 05-09-2017 9:59 AM

Edited by AdminPhat, : see above

Message 15 of 37 (808241) 05-09-2017 11:06 AM

Reply to: Message 13 by jar 05-09-2017 9:59 AM

Disrespectful writing, Jar, but at least you posted a truth in my opinion. The Lord is into us doing our part. Putting his truths into practice rather Him doing everything for us. We have to do our part before He can do the rest, that we can not do.

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.