As a Christian, I am encouraged many ways and am told many things by fellow believers...some good wisdom and some not so good. From a believers perspective, A peaceful, successful, and mentally healthy life can not be gained solely through secular psychology---we need our belief and the stories that come with it.
Here at EvC, I have spent many years attempting to support the belief which I was taught---often to no avail.
I believe that God(Creator of all seen and unseen rather than storybook characters invented by humans) desires to communicate wisdom and encourage us as we learn how to live in this world. Critics often point to evidence and the lack thereof. It can be frustrating going around and around and getting nowhere---as if the merry-go-round never stops where I want it to stop.
What prompted me to start this new thread was a message shared with me on facebook. People whom I would consider solid Bible students send a message every day at this site, and I respect the wisdom that is gleaned from the Bible stories...admittedly because what is said is agreeable to my personal belief and expresses what to me anyway is an obvious extrapolation of the truth found in the story. I thought I would share his message today to start off this topic and get opinions and feedback from the loyal EvC peanut gallery. We Christians here at EvC are a Motley Crew--we rarely even agree with each other much except as regards to the living truth spoken of in the Bible. Only jar among us disagrees even with that. Anyway, let's get on with this.......
Here was one message:
DEAD BUT STILL DEADLY writes:
The epic tale of David and Goliath is one of the most well-known stories in the Bible. On one side of the Valley of Elah stands the Philistine army, with their nine-foot-tall champion named Goliath. On the other side of valley stands the Israelite army, cowering in fear under the leadership of their king named Saul. For forty days Goliath has been taunting the Israelites and holding them in the grip of fear. Day after day he has been challenging them to send out one soldier to face him man to man. But so far, nobody has volunteered.
Perhaps you can relate to the plight of the Israelites. Some kind of giant is standing before you, taunting you, harassing you, and insulting you. Maybe it’s fear. Maybe it’s anger. Maybe it’s a feeling of rejection. Maybe it’s the sneaky but all-too-familiar giant of comfort that compels you to live for something lesser. It might even be an addiction.
Whatever this giant is in your life, day after day it has been robbing you of power. You’ve tried to stop the taunts, but you feel immobilized. Held back. Paralyzed from moving forward. Ultimately, you know you’re not living the fullness and freedom of life that God intends for you.
The good news is that God has made a way for these giants to fall. It starts with believing that even though the giant you’re battling might be big, it’s not bigger than Jesus. In fact, He has already defeated the giants in your life. When He came to this earth, He endured hell for you on the cross and rose from the grave so you could shake off the prospect of a doomed life. He came to set you free from the giants who rise up against you and hold you paralyzed in fear.
Jesus has already overcome the enemy. However, as we read in 1 Peter 5:8, the devil still “prowls around . . . looking for someone to devour.” In many ways, he is like a snake with its head cut off. When you kill a snake, you have to be sure to bury its head, because even after death the serpent holds a lethal dose of venom in its fangs. If you step on a dead snake’s head, you can still get poisoned. In the same way, even though Jesus broke the power of Satan at the cross, he can still inject his deadly poison into our lives. He is dead but still deadly.
The goal then, as we will discuss in this study, is not to step on the snake’s head. In practical terms, this means resisting the devil (see James 4:7), equipping the defenses Jesus has provided (see Ephesians 6:10–18), and leaning into his sufficiency (see Proverbs 3:5). It means remembering that he is your David in the story—and you can never bring down giants through your own courage, willpower, or efforts. It’s always Jesus who brings the giant down.
If you truly want to see victory over the giants in your life, you need to understand your dependency on the all-sufficiency of Jesus Christ. Victory is all about trusting in Christ and not about trying to succeed. To take the first step against your dead-but-still-deadly enemy, you’ve got to make this paradigm shift in your mind. Christ is the only force that brings change.
Here is today's additional segment:
When you read the story of David and Goliath in the Bible, one of the first things you notice is that the Israelite army was “dismayed and terrified” of the giant (1 Samuel 17:11). Goliath started each day with taunts and ended each day with taunts. As time went by, all that demoralizing and diminishing had an effect on the Israelites. They began to believe in spite of their best efforts, something undesirable was going to happen to them . . . their defeat.
This is basically the definition of fear—the belief that something is out there that is going to get you that you can’t do anything to stop. This fear can manifest itself in many different ways—anxiety, nervousness, worry, stress, dread, hopelessness, panic, to name a few—and can spring up in your life from a variety of sources. Perhaps you experience fear as a result of the environment in which you were raised. Maybe your family treated life like one big threat that never diminished. At any minute, something could go wrong . . . and it probably would.
Or perhaps you experience fear as a result of trying to conceal mistakes and imperfections in your life. You are ashamed of something you’ve done in the past, and you worry that one day it will be made public and brought to light. Or perhaps you experience fear as a result of trying to control too many things in your life. You’ve realized that most things in life are out of your control, and this makes you fearful about what will happen in the future.
The giant of fear can get a foothold in your life and begin to dominate you. It can demoralize you and ultimately diminish God’s glory in your life. It can chew away at your life, erode your sense of confidence, rob you of sleep, blind you, and steal your praise to God. Fear is a relentless giant. And it is one that must fall through the power of Jesus.
The solution to facing the giant of fear is not determination but faith in Jesus. It isn’t so much saying, “Fear, go away,” but confessing, “I have confidence that Jesus is bigger than this giant and has already defeated it.” In Romans 10:17, Paul states, “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (NKJV). When you see and hear God in and through his Word, the Word allows you to see and hear that He is bigger than your giant. That builds up your faith, and your faith, in turn, becomes the stone that shuts up the giant that’s already defeated.
So today, identify the source of your fear and place it in the hands of Jesus. Remind yourself that with God all things are possible (see Matthew 19:26) and he is able to overcome this giant. Remember that Jesus has promised to always be with you (see Hebrews 13:5). Name what is keeping you up at night, and then offload those cares to the One who has promised to care for you (see 1 Peter 5:7). Then fill your mouth with praise because you see God’s might.. recognize his love for you, and know that he will always come through. His mercy will never fail (see Lamentations 3:22).
As you do this, even though the cause of your fear may not be removed, you will be actively relegating fear to its proper place: into the hands of Christ.
The opposite of fear isn’t courage but faith. What does faith in Jesus involve when you’re up against the giant of fear? What do you need to believe? What do you need to do?
What helps you become convinced that God is bigger than your fears and has overcome whatever you fear?
What role do praise and worship have in dealing with fear? Why are they so important?
Both of these studies are based on what is seen among the so-called "clubs" of Christianity as being quite unanimously common. Only jars interpretations of scripture disagree widely with most of the club interpretations. To his credit, he can support and back up much of his argument...but the main difference remains and that is why we have division among the believers.
In this topic, I wish to discuss what I have shared and why it is or is not "good advice".
Faith & Belief, please.
Edited by Phat, : fixed quote
Edited by Phat, : more specific
Edited by Phat, : editing
Edited by Phat, : Title
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
I think most fundamentalists have read a similar devotional.
There seems to be an obsession with conquering "fear " among almost every fundi I have ever talked to.
I used to suggest that I don't think the world is fearful enough of various things ( especially death ) and that more fear would be a good thing if it moderated radical and dangerous behavior.
The World's Borough of Queens has been gripped with severe fear ( and, trust me, if you don't live here - it is SEVERE) over the Trump immigration raids.
The million plus Queens immigration population is terrified and good Christians and Jews ( around the nation ) have been declaring themselves and their houses of worship a "sanctuary congregation " which will use their physical sanctuary to protect immigrants from raids.
No Muslim mosque has been brave enough to join the movement. They fear becoming targets of hate crimes and accused of endless other things if they join the movement to provide protection to immigrants.
But the first ever sanctuary congregation that wasn't Jewish or Christian finally emerged!
It was a very brave Hindu Temple.
See May 8 New York Times article Hindu Temple in Queens Joins Sanctuary Movement by Sharon Otterman.
All the dozens of other 100 plus Hindu, Buddhist, and Muslim houses of worship are still too terrified to join the movement, but the historic and courageous stand taken by Shaanti Bhavan Mandir makes for the first non Jewish, non Christian body of faithful to take a stand against the evil horrors the innocent must face.
The climate here in Queens is one of constant fear, but it has been the most spiritual atmosphere I have ever been in to see the community and vast body of elected officials come together in solidarity with each other in this battle of good over evil.
You can literally feel the fear in the air and it is fundamentally spiritual.
Re: I think most fundamentalists have read a similar devotional.
There seems to be an obsession with conquering "fear " among almost every fundi I have ever talked to.
We are taught that faith is the antidote to fear. Faith is the opposite. Every angel that ever showed up usually began their announcement with "fear not"...
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
A peaceful, successful, and mentally healthy life can not be gained solely through secular psychology---we need our belief and the stories that come with it.
The problem you have Phat is that your premise is just wrong. Billions of people lead content and happy lives without the prop of an imaginary god looking afetr them. I'm one of them.
You live in your own bubble and can't imagine how people outside it live. Western Europe is mostly secular you know. Scandanavia is 80% atheist but has the happiest countries in the world. Relieving yourself from the obvious burden of your conflicting religious beliefs would do you a power of good.
As, for your 'thought for the day' stuff, I'm afraid I couldn't read it. Just preacher's drivel.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Re: I think most fundamentalists have read a similar devotional.
We are taught that faith is the antidote to fear. Faith is the opposite. Every angel that ever showed up usually began their announcement with "fear not"...
Actually the angels said it because they were awesome and scary in power, so that the viewers would settle down and listen to the message rather than fearing the messenger. Just like evolutionists when hearing truths from a intelligent design proponent. It sacres them so they attack the messenger rather than listening to the message.
Anyway, the people that teach fear the most are usually preachers as they fear their flocks might get personal faith and then not need them nor contribute to them and the preachers needs. But the Lord does say fear not, because faith is the opposite of fear. If you step out in fear on the principles of the Lord, they work.
You dont have to fear false science and false principles and false people, if you have chosen right and its the time and place, go forward in faith rather than fear.
Fear not true science, all science points to the Lord and his principles. Why because he created science, and Math. Dont fear math, understand it, use it to build your faith.
Dont let evolutionists and false teachers and preachers destroy your faith and your truths. Get to the basics and gain faith by experiencing and testing out faith in the real world. Leave theories to the geeks and the dreamers and the unreal. Ground yourself in real life and in real principles.
Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.
. The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
Faith is not some cover-up and bush to hide behind, when the heathen spout their doctrines and intimidations. Faith is an experience you have gone through and come out KNOWING that the principle you followed is true and works.
Faith is not some sort of magical defense mechanism when you are attacked. Real faith comes from the many times you have stood your ground and tested the Lord and the Lord has come through for you according to your real faith.
Its not trumpted up faith or ego faith or group faith, its real faith, in really knowing what you are standing on is REAL.
The word Faith to church Christians means in most cases very little, because they have never taken the Lord at His word and experienced the faith walk. They have never given much, let alone all to the Lord, so they usually (but not in all cases) are very weak in faith and so hide behind church systems and a very loose knowledge of what Jesus actually said or did....let alone experiencing these truths for themselves.
. The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
your comments on the piece from my Pastor and whether or not you agree with the premise
As with most religious ideas. I agree with the overall sentiment - that sometimes we just need some motivation to go and defeat the giants affecting our lives. But not the specifics as proposed by your Pastor
I suppose that some believe that we collectively are all that exists, while others believe that a Creator became human and communed with us at one point in time
I am of the belief that these are not the only two options.
From a believers perspective, A peaceful, successful, and mentally healthy life can not be gained solely through secular psychology---we need our belief and the stories that come with it.
From my perspective, I would need to add some more context to your statement. If you mean "can't do it without God" I would respectfully disagree. There are many who do just that. If you mean something along the lines of "can't ignore the strength that comes from belief and communal stories" I would agree with you. I would just point out that such things can offer their strength just as well without the involvement of God. Myself, I believe in love and the goodness of the human spirit in other people. Such things are a bit more concrete than 'God,' and yield the same something-more-than-yourself strength.
That all being said. From my perspective, I still wouldn't say that my way is "the only" way. And I would endorse that you use whatever-way-seems-to-work-best for you. And I would ask you allow the same courtesy for me.
And now, into your Pastor's sermon:
Phat's Pastor's Story writes:
Whatever this giant is in your life, day after day it has been robbing you of power. You’ve tried to stop the taunts, but you feel immobilized. Held back. Paralyzed from moving forward. Ultimately, you know you’re not living the fullness and freedom of life that God intends for you.
I agree with everything up to and including this paragraph. I think the setup is something that most people deal with (some on a daily basis) and something that requires a solution or other avenue of help to deal with.
The good news is that God has made a way for these giants to fall. It starts with believing that even though the giant you’re battling might be big, it’s not bigger than Jesus. .... Jesus has already overcome the enemy.
This, I believe, is a part of the problem with religion. Yes, we all face big problems. Yes, there are ways to go about tackling/mitigating them. However, religion doesn't stop there... it jumps straight to "this will definitely solve all your problems!!" Such a claim is flat-out wrong, and easily shown to be wrong and only leads to give people a false sense of security. Some people will have that false security tested to the level that shows the deception for what it is and destroys the illlusion, leaving them with less help than what they started with... from the very 'tool' they lean on in order to try and gain help. I find such things disgusting.
The proof that it is flat-out wrong: Some giants are bigger than Jesus. Or, at a minimum, there are some giants Jesus does not (or has not) overcome. Specifically, there are situations that exist that are destructive and simply more powerful than anything Jesus can do (or has done) to prevent them. There are many specific examples (cancer, abuse, rape, war, natural disasters, infant-terminal birth defects...) but there's no reason to get into them. The point isn't that we shouldn't fight against such things (we should, because sometimes we definitely can win). The point is that these things do exist, and there are times that they are stronger than us and that's not our fault.
People die from things like this all the time. Many of those people fully believe in Jesus to save them. He just... doesn't. Maybe Jesus can't, maybe Jesus doesn't exist, maybe Jesus has another plan.... lots of 'excuses' abound, but they all miss the point. The point is it's wrong to say things like "Jesus has already overcome the enemy" when it's clear that Jesus has not done so. Jesus allowing the enemy to kill certain believers because He has another plan for them is not the same thing as Jesus already overcoming the enemy.
The pastor attempts to hedge his bets on this issue by talking about burying the dead-snake-head in the ground because the poison can still hurt you. If "the enemy" (the poison from the dead-snake) can still hurt you... then Jesus has not "already overcome" the enemy. The danger is still there, and we still have to rely on not-Jesus to mitigate it as best as possible.
When religion ignores this point, and people live their lives and run into such things and become extremely disappointed and let down... that's where the danger of this sort of we-can-fix-all-idea is a very, very negative thing.
And the worst part is... you don't have to forsake Jesus just to understand the fact that some issues in life are too big to overcome. Religion could easily take the stand that Jesus is there as a guide to help you overcome whatever problems you can, and mitigate-as-best-as-possible the problems that cannot be fully defeated.
THAT is a great message. And THAT message can be done religiously with Jesus at the helm (if desired). The benefits of such a message is that it deals with reality, truth and honesty and does not rely on "selling a quick fix" to it's audience.
If you truly want to see victory over the giants in your life, you need to understand your dependency on the all-sufficiency of Jesus Christ.
The rest of the message contains lines such as the above. My point would be that Jesus Christ is not necessary to see victory over the giants in one's life (my life is a living proof of this). To be clear: I do not have an issue with someone using Jesus Christ to overcome the giants in their life. In fact, if it works for someone, I would personally encourage them to use Jesus Christ to overcome their giants. My issue is with anyone who says that Jesus Christ is the only way for everyone to overcome all possible giants. This is easily shown to be false.
And, again, the only reason to promote such an obviously-incorrect idea is to promote one's own ideas for selfish reasons instead of looking to reality for honest resolutions to honest problems.
Pastor's Story Part II writes:
The giant of fear can get a foothold in your life and begin to dominate you. It can demoralize you and ultimately diminish God’s glory in your life. It can chew away at your life, erode your sense of confidence, rob you of sleep, blind you, and steal your praise to God. Fear is a relentless giant.
Again, I agree with the sermon's setup up to and including this point. Like any great embellishment, it bases it's foundation in reality and truth.
But then we immediately run into the same error:
And it is one that must fall through the power of Jesus.
1 - No, it doesn't have to be Jesus to remove or mitigate this fear. There are other avenues as well. Some will work better than others for different people, because people are different.
2 - No, Jesus cannot remove ALL fears. Most? Sure, for some people. Even to the point of "all fears that most people will ever encounter in their lives." However... this is not the same as jumping to a complete ALL. There certainly are fears that Jesus cannot conquer (or, at least, chooses not to conquer). Or are we trying to say that no Christian has ever had a chronic, debilitating fear of anything? Such a claim is trivially not true.
And again, the real answer is that even Jesus can only mitigate certain fears and isn't able to remove ALL of them. Just as every tool we've ever devised without Jesus.
Some people will work better believing in Jesus. Some people will work better using other tools.
But nothing (including Jesus) has ever had the ability to solve ALL fears for ALL people.
Of course there are miracle-stories of Jesus solving huge fears for some specific people. Just as there are miracle-stories of non-Jesus-tools solving huge fears for other specific people.
But to claim that anything (including Jesus) is able to solve ALL fears for ALL people in ANY circumstance is simply laughably false... and very dangerous to someone who believes it and ends up in a circumstance where such a method does not provide the expected 'catch-all' help.
It is much healthier to teach reality. Prepare for reality. Understand that Jesus might remove many, many fears... and help mitigate ALL fears to some degree... but cannot remove ALL fears. Such a lens helps more, and doesn't let anyone 'fall through the cracks.'
To summarize... I believe your pastor is trying to help, however he can. However, I think his naïve way of offering Jesus as a plan to help ALL problems causes more issues than it solves for the ones who really need such help. And that's a massive, massive shame.
Sorry Bro, I have never heard anyone suggest Jesus can only solve a few fears and not all fears. For suggesting there are some things Jesus can't do, is surely limiting the ALMIGHTY. For by mere definition, ALL MIGHTY means all mighty and all powerful.
But if you mean, we humans have to avail of His power to remove fears, then I can agree with you, and that means any and all. Agreed ?
But the main problem is that people have not given all to the Lord and followed his directives in forsaking all to know all and know how to follow. Half timers have a very difficult time having faith because they haven;t followed the full time instructions.
. The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
as nothing is impossible with the Lord.... but lets see where true faith comes from ...
********
Getting Faith is not some mystery, it is really quite simple. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God as the Lord’s WORD says....Faith comes by hearing and hearing from the WORD of God. (Romans 10:17)
You can’t get it any other way. It comes from the Lord’s direct Voice or reading the direct words of the Lord through His prophets and prophetesses. Or if you can’t read, then someone has to read it to you, or listen to it on a tape or somehow see or listen to His literal words.Because just as his Literal Words brought the physical world into being, so only His literal words can bring FAITH into being in our hearts. It is a real seed that only comes by hearing or seeing and then believeing.
There is no other way to get Faith. It is not magical and you can’t pray for more without listening to the Lord’s Words. You can’t pray up your faith, you can only believe more of the Lord’s direct WORDS. and quite fighting it, just let them sink down into your heart as the Lord said. For His Words are powerful and He means what He said, so just believe it literally, and you get more FAITH
So sometimes you need to get off your knees in so called desperate prayer and turn on the lights and read His WORD, and after hearing from the Lord and putting the Lord first, then surely more of our prayers will be heard and answered. Therefore we all need to stop looking for signs and wonders to increase our Faith, and just simply read or listen and believe, and then act on the seed of truth we have accepted, to see it grow. There is no such thing as lazy faith, it doesn’t come from us and our inward search, it comes from our accepting the Lord’s words given to us all. I mean you name the category if we want STRENGTH, then look up all the words on strength in the Bible, or go to an on-line concordance and punch in the word STRENGTH, such as at http://www.khouse.org/blueletter
Ask the Holy Spirit to teach you and guide you, read what it says, and believe and you will get more strength. WHY …because strength comes from the Lord and not ourselves. He is our strength and its not in our own might. Quite being macho even if you are feminine, rely on the Lord and believe and you get STRENGTH.
And so it is with every subject, if you want it. Read about it, believe it, act on it, and you have it. Don't worry about your inadequacies , overcome them by gaining Faith in the Lord.. It’s right before all of our eyes, so we all are responsible for our own condition or lack of conditioning. So let’s get more FAITH and progress and get stronger in the Lord and in His LOVE, by listening to His Voice through His WORDS.
Believe in the Lord and miracles can happen.....
. The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
. The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
Re: Jesus says "Don't wait for me to do it for you."
Jesus says, "If your ass falls in a crack on the Sabbath don't wait until the next day to pull it out and don't expect me to do it for you!"
Disrespectful writing, Jar, but at least you posted a truth in my opinion. The Lord is into us doing our part. Putting his truths into practice rather Him doing everything for us. We have to do our part before He can do the rest, that we can not do.
Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.
. The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
™ Version 4.0 Beta
(1)
