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Author | Topic: Encouragement From A Believers Perspective | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member Posts: 18854 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 3.7
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Worth quoting because you actually got it right for once.
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Davidjay ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 1078 days) Posts: 1026 From: B.C Canada Joined:
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Yes, Ringo..... its a good point, that us humans, and those HEREIN should concentrate on the message rather than fearing and cowering away from the messenger. Same principle, study the concept, the principle, the facts, the revelations, the message, the math ... rather than trying to save face among their peers or congregation.
Stay objective rather than becoming subjective. . The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK. .
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Phat Member Posts: 14868 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
In another topic, you commented to percy
In this thread, you also commented when I stated that A peaceful, successful, and mentally healthy life can not be gained solely through secular psychology---we need our belief and the stories that come with it.
Lets take this most recent hurricane, Maria. It devastated Puerto Rico, and a local mayor commented: quote:To me, you have illogical assumptions about God---and resort to the Bible to rest your case---even though you tell Percy that a believer shouldn't believe based on the stories but on logic, reason, and reality. As a believer, I can assure you that many people prayed during that hurricane. They never saw the hurricane as an act of God...chiefly because most of the believers I know believe that God desires what is best for humans and is not vindicative. A hurricane is simply an act of the weather on the planet on which we all live. I believe that God is not out to punish atheists for not believing and understands you much better than you could even conceive of Him, Her, or It. My point regarding the hurricane is that many people prayed---and whether or not their prayers fell upon a void or not is irrelevant. It gave them comfort in something they believe to be greater than themselves...something apart from the hurricane that also was greater than they and which smashed their world into rubble.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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ringo Member Posts: 18854 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
You haven't relieved yourself of the burden yet.
No. "We" don't.
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Tangle Member Posts: 8052 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
I don't claim it, it's a documented fact but it also depends what you consider a 'long way.' The enlightenment was about 400 years ago. At that time almost all of Europe was a believer in the same fundamental way as Faith is. Now those that believe are a minority and their belief has softened to a mostly harmless liberal mush. I'd say that was great progress.
As an atheist I'd say you were almost certainly correct. But so what?
Many believers DO believe that hurricanes and the like are deliberate acts of god, we routinely hear of the zealots claiming it's retribution for stuff like homosexuality and liberalism. But sure, most prefer to believe that god isn't vindictive. (Though it's not obvious from the Old Testament why anyone would think that - other than wishful thinking.)
Did god not make the forces that make the weather, knowing what random devastation it would cause and didn't he have a better model when he created the Garden of Eden?
Fine, but what you personally believe has no bearing on anything at all does it?
It's highly relevant. What could be more relevant than whether a supplicant is wasting his time begging for help?
Oh, right, it gave them comfort......god as panacea, that's the best you've got? Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Stile Member Posts: 4017 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 4.4
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I think this sort of downplays the importance of mental health for any and all humans. To those who require it, "god as panacea" is extremely important. They very well could spiral into devastating depression without it. Could they not have been "trained" (for lack of a better word) differently over the course of their life? At the moment of that terrible disaster, "god as panacea" worked, worked well, and may very well have been the only thing that possibly could work for some of them. I find that to be a "very good" and "very important" thing.
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Tangle Member Posts: 8052 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
No it doesn't. But because it makes some people feel better is not proof of the existence of god and admitting that it's a panacea demonstrates that.
Sure, but as the false notion of god dissipates, people can no longer rely on the false premise and have to learn to cope with reality. It's leaving home and growing up.
People can and will do what they do, that's not the point is it? Here we're looking for what's real, indirect benefits from the imagination is not what we're at.
I'm not in any position to take it away from anyone, what's happening across modern societies is a realisation that the thing they believed in was a fantasy. It's an inevitable consequence of the advancement of actual knowledge. It's simply growing up and learning how to live an independent life. And who is insulting anyone? Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Faith ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 193 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There may be some religious faith that is motivated by seeking comfort, but in my experience with Christians and my own personal experience it's about simply believing it's true. Also, "falling in love with God." I don't think I've ever met anyone who believes because of some felt need to believe but maybe I've missed those stories.
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Faith ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 193 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Something like that happened to me when I was fifteen and atheist friends persuaded me out of my not-very-strong Christian upbringing. So I considered it grown up to live without such things and considered myself an atheist for the next thirty years. Then when I came to REALLY believe it was because I knew it was true, not because I felt any need for it.
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Stile Member Posts: 4017 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
I completely agree.
Some people learn to cope with reality by laying their fears upon their imagination. You know you don't know. But it can still help them feel better.
I believe "the point" is whatever anyone claims for themselves (as long as they're not hurting others.)
We are? Why is "what's real" so important? Maybe "the point" of someone else's life if to specifically gain indirect benefits from their imagination? That's not my point. But I wouldn't stop anyone else from following it if that's what they wanted. I want to do what I want... and I don't want someone to decide I shouldn't be able to do what I want... just because they don't want the same thing. In that vein, I don't think I (or you) should be able to decide whether or not someone choosing to follow imaginary things is "right" or not. I don't think that's for you to decide, and I think it cheapens "humanity" or even "intelligence" if you think you should be deciding such a thing.
If that's what happens, then that's what happens. For certain specific goals I think it can (and should) be forced. Like, say "doing science" or "trying to learn about reality." But, in "general life"... such a goal is not as assumption we can just place on everyone. Some people couldn't care less if space is cool or not, or whether or not evolution took place, or what makes a crystal structure. I think the "goal of life" should be decided upon by the individual. And the question of "how the religious are dropping in popularity" is a question of general life goals... not under the scope of some sort of specific, agreed upon goal.
I don't know. Perhaps no one. I still don't think such ideas should be insulted by anyone. Even if no one is insulting them.
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Tangle Member Posts: 8052 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Sure, but you know, so what?
I don't know how to start to answer that - it seems pretty important to know what is real and what is imaginary doesn't it?
I don't know, I didn't say that they couldn't.
Maybe, and maybe there is no 'point' to it.
Me neither
Me too
You seems to have imagined a position I hold that I do not. Where are you getting all this from? People can do what the hell they want within the law, no matter how daft I think it is, and I have no interest in trying to stop them. But I will point out in places like this that I think it's daft. What I'm saying is that people are dropping their primitive beliefs all across the modern world. They're doing it quite naturally and without anyone forcing them. It's just part of how our societies are advancing, by accumulating real knowledge of the world and abandoning false and superstitious explanations. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Phat Member Posts: 14868 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Tangle Member Posts: 8052 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
A belief in something old and wrong.
Primitive refers to something at a very early stage of development. The ancient beliefs like Christianity are the beginnings of mankind's attempts to understand the world around them and think about meaning. To do it they made up children's stories around the campfires. We've moved on, we don't need the silly stories any more. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Phat Member Posts: 14868 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
For many years, religion kept the poor impoverished masses from revolting against the established wealthy and powerful. The more secular the world at large becomes, the better a possibility for mass revolution will occur.
You seem too sure that its all made up...though I will admit that much is.
Would you agree with the above quote and suggest that I have no valid reasons to justify my beliefs as true? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Tangle Member Posts: 8052 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Really? I'd say the reverse, the more secular a society becomes the more democratic and evolved its institutions become. The reduction of poverty and improvements in education, health law and order all play to fairer societies.
Well that's a complicated way of saying something simple. It's true that some people have a belief in god. It's true that atheists don't. It's true that atheists argue that believers have insufficient evidence to support their belief. But that's why it's called a belief. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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