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Author Topic:   What is Creationism?
Tangle
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From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(3)
Message 5 of 88 (808953)
05-15-2017 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CRR
05-15-2017 3:00 AM


What's wrong with the dictionary?

quote:
noun
1.
a person who believes that the universe and living organisms originate from specific acts of divine creation, as in the biblical account.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CRR, posted 05-15-2017 3:00 AM CRR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 05-15-2017 11:46 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7805
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 17 of 88 (809003)
05-15-2017 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
05-15-2017 11:46 AM


Re: Which came first? The Mind or the matter?
Phat writes:

The concept of a Creator need not be limited to an ancient storybook.

Of course - but it almost always is.

The concept of creationism presupposes a source of creativity.

Yup, normally called god.

One may trace the source back to a primordial soup of chemicals. (Matter)

Nope - that just asks the question 'what created the soup?'

Or one may believe that the source is Mind. (Mind over matter)

If you're suggesting that I'm making all this up in my head and nothing but my head exists, I have to ask 'what made my head?'


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 05-15-2017 11:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7805
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 24 of 88 (809068)
05-16-2017 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by CRR
05-16-2017 5:16 AM


Re: Young Earth Creationism
You just told us what you as a young earth Christian creationist believe. That's going to be almost unique to you and a few others. There are multiple flavours of creationist with multiple beliefs, and none.

In other words for anyone interested in life the universe and everything, so what?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by CRR, posted 05-16-2017 5:16 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by CRR, posted 05-16-2017 8:24 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7805
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 27 of 88 (809080)
05-16-2017 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by CRR
05-16-2017 8:24 AM


Re: Young Earth Creationism
CRR writes:

Uh, yeah. That is kinda the purpose of this thread isn't it?

Well I did wonder.....

But telling us what you personally believe, while sort of interesting in that it helps us understand where you are coming from, can not be applied more generally.

Definitions tend to be specific and the only definition I can think of that's of any use is the dictionary one.

After the statement that some undefined being created life the universe and everything, the rest is a set of diverse subjective opinions - probably as many as there are creationists.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by CRR, posted 05-16-2017 8:24 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7805
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 47 of 88 (809395)
05-18-2017 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by CRR
05-18-2017 9:29 AM


CRR writes:

I stated reading Young Earth Creationist literature out of curiosity and after a while I began to realise they had valid arguments.

They have no arguments; they have beliefs. In order to sustain those beliefs against the mountain of multi-disciplinary evidence showing them to be wrong they have a small collection of misleading quote mines and mostly antique and always discredited pieces 'evidence' that they think of as proof of a case against all the science that contradicts them.

The YEC position is just absurd - demonstrably wrong by simple observation. There's multiple sources of cross-correlated evidence that puts YEC beyond all reasonble doubt and none of it needs to include evolution.

YEC is a form of madness.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by CRR, posted 05-18-2017 9:29 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7805
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 82 of 88 (810285)
05-27-2017 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by CRR
05-27-2017 2:05 AM


Re: The cat kind
CRR writes:

So if you can show by hybridisation a chain linking a group of species and genera couldn't you call that a Kind?

Creationists can and do call anything a kind. I've just been reading 'The impossible voyage of Noah's ark' which, if you'll excuse the pun, blows the entire story out of the water. Here's a small extract about kinds.

quote:
Taxonomic problems.
The taxonomy of kinds is another bewildering subject. The only clear thrust of creationist writing seems to be ridiculing the concept of species, a term usually rendered with quotation marks. We respond with White that, "if we were to give up the notion of species altogether, most discussions in such fields as ecology, ethology, population genetics, and cytogenetics (to name only a few) would simply become impossible" (p. 5).
Aside from this, the creationist baramin can vary anywhere from the level of genus to order (Siegler, 1978)-or even to phylum (Ward, p. 49)—although there seems to be a vague consensus approximating it with the biological family. The most often-cited instance of a kind, for example, is the family Canidae, which has fourteen genera and thirty-five species (Siegler, 1974). But Sciuridae (squirrels) has 281 species, and the genus Rattus (old world rats) has several hundred. Would creationists recognize the eighteen families of bats, with their eight-hundred-plus species, as eighteen distinct kinds, or would they make the order Chiroptera into a single bat kind? Would they distinguish the nearly thirty families (two thousand species) of catfish? At the other extreme are many families with but a single species, and even higher categories, such as the orders Tubulidentata (aardvarks) and Struthioniformes (ostriches) or even the phylum Placozoa, with but one representative. Why did the creator endow rats, bats, catfish, and mosquitos (twenty-five hundred species in family Culicidae) with such adaptive potential but withhold this potential from aardvarks, ostriches, and placozoans, especially when we learn that "each baramin was intended to move toward maximum variation" (Ancil, p. 124)? What becomes of the science of taxonomy under this basis or when the "major categories" (phyla?) are sea monsters, other marine animals, birds, beasts of the earth, cattle, and crawling animals (Henry Morris, 1974, p. 216)?

The theory of kinds is incoherent and confusing. Since it runs counter to all the known facts of genetics and taxonomy, the burden of proof is upon the creationists to verify it. Where are the fossil baramins? What findings show that such ideal creatures ever existed? If complete sets of kind alleles could survive twenty-four hundred or more years of radiation before the flood, it should be possible to find specimens today with inexplicably large chromosomal complements, perhaps in undiversified families. Unfortunately for "baramin geneticists," studies have been done on such families (cf. Loughman, Frye, and Herald), and nothing extraordinary has been discovered. Still no experiments are forthcoming from the ICR to test its hypothesis. It is, in fact, "armchair science" without a shred of evidence, and we are justified in rejecting it entirely and assuming that "two of every sort" means two of every species.


https://ncse.com/cej/4/1/impossible-voyage-noahs-ark

But really, if you can read the whole thing and come out believing that the biblical story of the flood is literally true, you've achieved a level of delusion I find it impossible to understand is real.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by CRR, posted 05-27-2017 2:05 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by CRR, posted 05-27-2017 6:57 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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