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Author | Topic: Can mutation and selection increase information? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
CRR Member (Idle past 1517 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
Then you might have sent me a message to say you were asking.
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CRR Member (Idle past 1517 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
Yes I think that is a good way to put it. According to the ToE the development of living things has HAD a general direction from simple to more complex organisms, although this does not exclude instances of the reverse direction. I note you agree that there appears to have been an enormous increase in information. I would say that the mutation selection mechanism can't produce enough new information. This might not be a universal view among ToE skeptics but I think this opinion is fairly widespread; e.g. Kirk Durston, Douglas Axe, Stephen Meyer. In "Undeniable" Douglas Axe says in Chapter 11 " As a finder of inventions, Darwin's evolutionary mechanism is a complete bust, but as we saw in chapter 7, it sometimes comes in handy as a fiddler". Can anyone support either claim? Well in the 150 years since Darwin published Origin of Species what do our observations show? So far we have seen many examples of changes that could be accomplished by a fiddler; we have seen none that require an inventor. One oft cited example of evolution is the Peppered Moth. It is quite likely that the dark form arose as a mutation not long before it was first observed in 1811. This produced a new variety but not a new species. The mutation produced a new allele of an existing gene. quote: The spread of the dark form is one of the clearest and most easily understood examples of Natural Selection in action. However this is the work of a fiddler, not an inventor. It provides very little support for evolution being able to produce significant amounts of new information.
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CRR Member (Idle past 1517 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
Incorrect.
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CRR Member (Idle past 1517 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
The problem you evolutionists have is that you all have different definitions of what evolution and the ToE are. You all believe different things.
Go ahead and copy/paste as many quotes from whoever you like, I already know I don't agree with Faith and Dredge on everything.
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CRR Member (Idle past 1517 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
quote:Dr Robert Carter, http://creation.com/mutations-new-information quote:Alex Williams, http://creation.com/...al-mutations-real-or-imaginary-part-1 quote:Dr. Georgia Purdom, https://answersingenesis.org/...e-there-beneficial-mutations I could give examples from the Discovery Institute but they don't count because they're not Creationists.
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CRR Member (Idle past 1517 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
Lee Spetner makes the distinction between random and non-random mutations. He says that there are no examples of random mutations increasing information in the genome. However there are inbuilt mechanisms that can cause non-random genetic changes to respond to environmental events.
https://www.trueorigin.org/spetner3.php
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CRR Member (Idle past 1517 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
Unless you're Richard Dawkins who thinks it is like a weasel.
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CRR Member (Idle past 1517 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
Overall RD has been a Godsend to Darwinian Evolution Skeptics.
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CRR Member (Idle past 1517 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
There are 2 ways in which this isn't random. First, the periods of accelerated mutation aren't random in time, they occur when required to adapt to the environment. Second, they aren't randomly distributed throughout the genome; specific areas are targeted. So it appears the organism is searching for solutions with a constrained solutions space to adapt to a specific challenge. Perhaps in time we will discover even this isn't entirely random.
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CRR Member (Idle past 1517 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
The genetic differences between humans and chimps almost certainly constitutes a difference in information? If the non-homologous genes are due to deletions from the genome of a common ancestor then it would be a loss of information.
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CRR Member (Idle past 1517 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
There are two types of mutations.
1. Mutations that occur randomly in time and space; where time is measured by cell divisions and space is the full length of the genome. 2. Mutations that that are not random in space and time; they occur at cell division in response to an external trigger They will occur together but type 1 will occur at each cell division and type 2 will occur only when the external trigger happens. The affect on the phenotype of type 1 will be mostly neutral-harmful and rarely beneficial. These are not goal directed in any way. However type 2 appear to be goal directed in response to the trigger. If they are random in the target areas of the genome their purpose is still to produce an adaption in response to the stimuli. This will still be the case even if the distribution of harmful-neutral-beneficial is identical in proportions to those produced by type 1. However it is also possible that type 2 targets areas that are more likely to produce beneficial mutations. I doubt there is sufficient evidence to rule this possibility out or in.
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CRR Member (Idle past 1517 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
If they occur in response to environmental stress and the increased mutation rate helps the organism to adapt to that stress then possibly it is goal directed. The goal is to adapt to the stress. It's a reasonable hypothesis based on the observations, and should not be excluded at this stage.
So long as you remember that does not mean 50% harmful and 50% beneficial. The vast majority of mutations are detrimental, probably including those that code for the same amino acid. There is some evidence that even where the mutation codes for the same amino acid it can affect other things such as the rate of production.
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CRR Member (Idle past 1517 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
You can have a search that is both goal directed and random.
Suppose there are 100 boxes on a table and I'm told there is a chocolate bar in one of them. I go to the table and start opening boxes at random. I have a goal; I want the chocolate; but the search is random. Similarly when mutations increase in selected regions in response to an environmental stress there is a good chance that the goal is to adapt to the stressor, even if the mutations are essentially random. Since the hypermutation targets certain areas it is likely these areas have a higher probability of producing a favourable mutation. Conversely hypermutation in other areas of the genome are less likely to produce a mutation favourable to adaptation. This is a hypothesis. There is insufficient evidence at this time to accept it, but there is even less evidence to reject it.
Why not? We are all dependent for health on the correct ratios of many proteins, enzymes, hormones. If these are incorrect then we could suffer illness or a lack of fitness that could affect our ability to survive, attract a mate, and reproduce. A mutation in the germ cell will affect every cell in our body. In fact I have just such a condition.
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CRR Member (Idle past 1517 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
I believe (my opinion) the answers are maybe and yes. I suspect that if a part of the genome is targeted for hypermutation then the ratio could change, but I have no other evidence to support or refute that hypothesis at this time.
Which would I think make it a goal directed random search.
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CRR Member (Idle past 1517 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
Good. at least we can agree on that.
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