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Author Topic:   Can mutation and selection increase information?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 222 (815897)
07-26-2017 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Vlad
07-26-2017 6:03 AM


Re: Can mutation and selection increase information?
I see, guys, you prefer blah-blah to model experiments.

Ha! That's rich coming from a guy who goes on to use scare-quotes eight times.

Would spontaneous evolution be able to originate such form as, for instance, “counterrevolutionary”? Or any other 20-character English noun?

Words don't reproduce.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Vlad, posted 07-26-2017 6:03 AM Vlad has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 222 (815978)
07-27-2017 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by CRR
07-27-2017 7:06 AM


Re: random and non-random mutations
Lee Spetner makes the distinction between random and non-random mutations. He says that there are no examples of random mutations increasing information in the genome. However there are inbuilt mechanisms that can cause non-random genetic changes to respond to environmental events.

Consider a coin flip...

If we knew all the information about the forces that were involved in flipping it and causing it to tumble around in the air, we could accurately predict which side it lands on because, technically, it is not random.

But from our perspective it doesn't matter, we don't actually know which side it is going to land on so it appears random to us and gets the job done.

It's similar for mutations. The physical organism is what interacts with the environment and the mutations are to the genome that is buried deep within. The mutations may not, technically, be random in that there are causes for them, but from the perspective of the environment and its interactions with the physical organism, the mutations have the appearance of being random from the perspective of the environment.

The environment is blind to the alleles and only sees the phenotype. From that perspective, the mutations are random even if they do have predictable causes at the genetic level.

Mutations are random "with respect to fitness", not purely random as in a completely non-predictable manner.

Make sense?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Taq, posted 07-27-2017 11:52 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 222 (815979)
07-27-2017 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Vlad
07-27-2017 5:17 AM


Re: Can mutation and selection increase information?
Wow, you wrote an whole lot of words to end up saying nothing at all

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Vlad, posted 07-27-2017 5:17 AM Vlad has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 222 (816251)
08-01-2017 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by CRR
08-01-2017 3:32 AM


Re: random and non-random mutations
Ah, the good ol' equivocation on "random".

Genetic changes can respond to environmental events. They are still random with respect to fitness.


There are 2 ways in which this isn't random.
First, the periods of accelerated mutation aren't random in time, they occur when required to adapt to the environment.
Second, they aren't randomly distributed throughout the genome; specific areas are targeted.

At the genotypic level, they don't even have to be random in that they're not necessarily stochastic - but that still doesn't mean that they aren't random from the perspective at the phynotipic level.


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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 222 (816756)
08-10-2017 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by CRR
08-04-2017 8:04 AM


Re: random and non-random mutations
If they occur in response to environmental stress and the increased mutation rate helps the organism to adapt to that stress then possibly it is goal directed.

At the genotypic level, they don't even have to be random in that they're not necessarily stochastic - but that still doesn't mean that they aren't random from the perspective at the phynotipic level.


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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 222 (816938)
08-13-2017 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by CRR
08-13-2017 7:21 PM


Re: random and non-random mutations
goal–directed: aimed toward a goal or toward completion of a task.
As I have explained a search can have a goal while still being a blind search, as opposed to a guided search. And a blind search can be a random search.
(Maybe I should be writing "goal-directed" rather than "goal directed".)

That's cool, but if you're talking about the Theory of Evolution, you should understand that when mutations are referred to as random, it means with respect to fitness.

Going on about some other kind of randomness isn't talking about the Theory of Evolution.

Like I said, it's cool, postulate all you want. Just don't act like your talking about what the theory says.


This message is a reply to:
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