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Author Topic:   Can mutation and selection increase information?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8168
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 59 of 222 (815750)
07-24-2017 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by CRR
07-24-2017 5:02 AM


Re: Bump for CRR - copious quantities of genetic information
CRR writes:

The spread of the dark form is one of the clearest and most easily understood examples of Natural Selection in action. However this is the work of a fiddler, not an inventor. It provides very little support for evolution being able to produce significant amounts of new information.

Yes, it's a good example of a beneficial mutation followed by natural selection creating a change to the phenotype of a population - evolution in action, observed and proven. This is something creationists claim can't happen. Well there it is happening.

And yes, it's still a moth - and even still a peppered moth. But it changed and that was regarded as impossible - and still is by your chums. Dredge and Faith but it's good to see you moving forwards.

The 'fiddler' makes small changes slowly and over a long period of time they amount to very large changes as demonstrated by the fossil record.

It's case close, sir.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by CRR, posted 07-24-2017 5:02 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by CRR, posted 07-24-2017 6:20 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 67 by CRR, posted 07-25-2017 3:46 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8168
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 62 of 222 (815763)
07-24-2017 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by CRR
07-24-2017 6:20 AM


Re: Bump for CRR - copious quantities of genetic information
CRR writes:

Incorrect

Would you like me to copy and paste the quotes from the likes of Faith and Dredge and inumerable others that pass through this place? Really?

The problem you creationists have is that you all believe different things....


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by CRR, posted 07-24-2017 6:20 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by CRR, posted 07-24-2017 8:30 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8168
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 64 of 222 (815800)
07-24-2017 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by CRR
07-24-2017 8:30 AM


Re: Bump for CRR - copious quantities of genetic information
CRR writes:

The problem you evolutionists have is that you all have different definitions of what evolution and the ToE are. You all believe different things.

Out of all the definitions of evolution you've been given show me any that are contradictory.

Want me to try the same with creationism?

Go ahead and copy/paste as many quotes from whoever you like, I already know I don't agree with Faith and Dredge on everything.

Now show me where anyone that argues for evolution here disagrees on anything significant.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by CRR, posted 07-24-2017 8:30 AM CRR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by RAZD, posted 07-24-2017 3:35 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8168
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 69 of 222 (815840)
07-25-2017 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by CRR
07-25-2017 3:46 AM


Re: Bump for CRR - copious quantities of genetic information
CRR writes:

I could give examples from the Discovery Institute but they don't count because they're not Creationists.

This is all great news CRR, some creationists are beginning to accept evolutionary theory. Perhaps you could pass this knowledge onto Faith and Dredge here, it would save a lot of time.

Meanwhile are elephants and tapirs the same kind and why are pigs and cows not?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by CRR, posted 07-25-2017 3:46 AM CRR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Pressie, posted 07-25-2017 7:06 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8168
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 123 of 222 (816469)
08-05-2017 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by CRR
08-04-2017 8:47 PM


Re: random and non-random mutations
CRR writes:

Suppose there are 100 boxes on a table and I'm told there is a chocolate bar in one of them. I go to the table and start opening boxes at random. I have a goal; I want the chocolate; but the search is random.

If you want to make this analogy anything at all like mutation and selection you have to

1. Not know that there are either boxes or tables
2. Not know that there could be chocolate in one of them
3. Not know how to open the boxes
4. Not know why you should try to open the boxes
5. Not know that most of the boxes will blow up and kill you if you do open them

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by CRR, posted 08-04-2017 8:47 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8168
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 165 of 222 (818129)
08-23-2017 6:20 PM


Which has more information a pig or a cow?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Pressie, posted 08-24-2017 7:21 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8168
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(6)
Message 168 of 222 (818147)
08-24-2017 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Percy
08-24-2017 8:57 AM


Percy writes:

Actually, I don't think most of us could answer these questions ourselves, so I don't think it's fair to ask them of CRR.

Point of the question is to show its absurdity.

A pig has exactly enough 'information' to produce a pig. If it had more or less presumably it would produce something else or, more likely, nothing at all.

If H. Sapiens has less 'information' than a frog, what would that tell us? We already know that the size of the genome tells us nothing much about the complexity of the organism - the last time I looked an amoeba had a bigger genome that us, the largest animal genome was a locust and the largest overall was a pine tree (or a Japanese flower depending whether you care about doubling chromosomes.)

CRR can't even tell us why pigs and cows are seperate kinds or whether a tapir and elephant are the same kind - yet he's banging on about 'information' like he has any clue what it means.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Percy, posted 08-24-2017 8:57 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8168
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 182 of 222 (818325)
08-27-2017 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Porkncheese
08-27-2017 6:57 AM


Re: Cells
Incoming......

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Porkncheese, posted 08-27-2017 6:57 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8168
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 189 of 222 (818346)
08-27-2017 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Porkncheese
08-27-2017 10:01 AM


Re: Cells
Pornncheese writes:

Ok you are describing reproduction in animals which is not what im talking about.

Nevertheless, you now know that cells can differentiate - that is, start as one kind of cell and divide and specialise to become another. And you know that it's absolutely routine because it's simply the birth and growh process.

From what I understand a cell can only multiply itself.

As above, but also stem cells are also able to create cells that are not like themselves.

This being the case how can all life on earth have originated from only 1 cell?
So now some of you are saying that life did not originate from 1 cell. So Richard Dawkins must be incorrect then.

The article didn't say that did it? It said that it's statistically more likely to have come from one form of single celled organism than say from 2 or 3 or more different organisms. Do you see the difference?

It also said that "the probability that humans were created separately from everything else is 1 in 10 to the 6,000th power." ie much higher than even the multiple organism hypothesis.

So now some of you are saying that life did not originate from 1 cell. So Richard Dawkins must be incorrect then.

There is a difference between a single cell - say a liver cell, that is specialised for a particular function inside a complex organism - and a single celled organism which is a fully functioning, independent life form.

The theory of evolution, ToE, can't tell us much at the moment about how life itself started - in fact that's not covered at all by the ToE, that's a seperate subject called abiogenesis - but it does have a conclusion that all life shares a common ancestor - or, more correctly, at least one. Simple logic takes us all the way back to single celled organisms and before that chemical reactions. As yet we don't know how it evolved from those early stages of life and we may never know because it happened over 3bn years ago, but we know that it did and have the evidence to back it up.

We know that evolution occurrs in living organisms by changes to its DNA - often caused by mutations - followed by selection. This can happen in any reproducing organism - single-celled or otherwise. We have many examples of very simple organisms going through this process - bacteria and yeast for example, you only have to google to find them. Or if you stick around here long enough, they'll be thrown at you.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Porkncheese, posted 08-27-2017 10:01 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by CRR, posted 08-30-2017 12:22 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8168
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(3)
Message 194 of 222 (818530)
08-30-2017 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by CRR
08-30-2017 12:22 AM


Re: Cells
CRR writes:

That is the difference between a complex organism and a single celled organism.

That's one difference. Another is their success rate. Microorganims are the most successful group alive - able to live in every ecological niche from vaccuum to boiling geyser, they evolve faster than any other organism and their biomass outweighs the combined weight if all other living things. In comparison, 'complex' organisms are a waste of carbon.

btw, is a single-celled life form - ie an organism capable of independent life, feeding, growing and reproducing independently of other cells, more or less complex than, say, a stem cell?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by CRR, posted 08-30-2017 12:22 AM CRR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by RAZD, posted 08-30-2017 8:10 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8168
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 200 of 222 (818606)
08-31-2017 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by CRR
08-30-2017 6:15 PM


Re: Cells
CRR writes:


Over 200 times in the case of Amoeba dubia.
My conclusion is that size is not a good measure of information content. I have found that with books. You can't determine the value of the content by weighing a book or by doing a word count.

My conclusion is that the amoeba's genome is EXACTLY the size it needs to be for an amoeba. It containly precicely the correct amount (and value???) of informtion to be an amoeba.

How much 'value' or 'information' do you think can you remove from an amoeba's genome before it's no longer viable?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by CRR, posted 08-30-2017 6:15 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8168
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 215 of 222 (818695)
09-01-2017 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by CRR
08-31-2017 8:25 PM


Re: Information
CRR writes:

But we can all recognise information in everyday life, and distinguish different kinds of information and whether there is an increase or not. e.g. Hollandaise Sauce.

Are you sure?

Cap.

Add a letter:

Cape.

Add a letter:

Caper.

Has information increased? Or are these words just different?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by CRR, posted 08-31-2017 8:25 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
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