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Author Topic:   Micro v. Macro Creationist Challenge
PaulK
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Posts: 16979
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 85 of 252 (814452)
07-10-2017 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
07-10-2017 4:10 AM


Faith tries to play the definition game
quote:

Not at all anti-science

We know perfectly well that you take an anti-scientific attitude whenever science contradicts your beliefs. Denying it is foolish.

quote:

If you absolutely know something is the truth revealed by God, it can't be anti-science to treat it as the known truth.

Your personal delusions are not science - not even a genuine divine Revelatiin would be science.

quote:

It's just as scientific as any source of knowledge, or truth about the physical world, and far more reliable than any conclusions the fallen human mind can come up with.

One of the greatest strengths of science - the reason WHY it is reliable - is that it does its best to avoid the weaknesses of the human mind. Which is more than can be said for your beliefs. Not surprisingly science is the far more reliable of the two.

quote:

"Science" simply means "knowledge," you know.

In an archaic usage. So even this represents an equivocation.

Dishonestly trying to cover up the obvious truth does you no favours, Faith.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 4:10 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by mike the wiz, posted 07-10-2017 7:18 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16979
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 88 of 252 (814460)
07-10-2017 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by mike the wiz
07-10-2017 7:18 AM


Re: Faith tries to play the definition game
quote:

Of course you suggest two things are mutually exclusive, science, and the weakness of the human mind. But human minds came up with science, so who is to say that science is reliable, based on your reasoning? For under your own logic that would mean science could somehow be imperfect because of those weaknesses.

Wrong. I suggest that science takes measures to avoid the weaknesses of the human mind. And that makes it better than just really strongly believing something, which is what Faith offers as "science"

quote:

Confirmation evidence isn't enough to change the belief God created the world, especially if that evidence is circumstantial and tenuous, like with argued transitionals which are later abandoned. For example they used to argue the mesonychids were whale ancestors (probably spelt that wrong) but now they tend to argue it's the artiodactyls.

You can put your personal beliefs above science but that doesn't make them science. Nor does science's willingness to revise conclusions when better evidence arrives mean that science is worse than faith. Being open-minded and admitting your errors is better than making excuses to pretend you were right all along.

quote:

Now I am not arguing all these things here obviously, my only point is this; imagine ditching the belief God created the world because they found rhodocetus (evidence) only to later be told that this is now NOT evidence of whale evolution.

Only an idiot would change their mind that God created the world based on the find of a single transitional fossil - but I don't see why being told a falsehood makes it any worse. Rhodocetus is still evidence for the evolution of whales - speculative elements like the assumed tail fluke aren't even reasons for thinking that it is a transitional in the first place.

quote:

Try to deal with the claims people make instead of constantly referring to the person in some way

The claim being made is that Faith is not anti-science. How can that be answered without referring to Faith ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by mike the wiz, posted 07-10-2017 7:18 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16979
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 115 of 252 (814582)
07-11-2017 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Faith
07-10-2017 7:03 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
quote:

Sorry, you can't be a believer unless God is guiding you. It's "not by the will of man" that we believe but by the will of God

You can't escape your own fallibility just by believing that your beliefs are infallible.

quote:

So our belief is NOT subjective and fallible.

According to a subjective and fallible belief (which is rather obviously wrong)

Since you can't even reliably interpret the Bible - and your belief is a barrier to reliably interpreting the Bible - any claims to special insight are just arrogant delusion.

Sorry, I know you don't like accepting that your treasured beliefs can be wrong - even those that don't come from the Bible. But getting trapped in error is hardly a good way to find the truth.

quote:

There is no such thing as a valid critique of God's word.

There are plenty of valid critiques of your beliefs. Attributing your beliefs to God doesn't change that.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 7:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 2:11 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16979
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 118 of 252 (814586)
07-11-2017 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Faith
07-11-2017 2:11 AM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
quote:

Since you are an unbeliever you have no way to understand what it means that belief is a gift of God who makes the Bible intelligible.

Obvious misreadings can be detected by any literate person. And your misreadings are indeed obvious.

quote:

But you are welcome to join us any time by simply asking God to save you

It doesn't seem to have worked for you. But OK, God, save me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 2:11 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 2:55 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16979
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 121 of 252 (814589)
07-11-2017 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Faith
07-11-2017 2:55 AM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
quote:

Since you are unable to recognize an obvious misreading and obviously misread it yourself, end of subject.

Since I can prove my case and you can't you lose. And I'll defend that any time. A Great Debate thread if you wish.

quote:

You have to desire salvation from the heart, ask for it with some persevering sincerity and be willing to accept some things that right now you don't accept (I had to accept lots of things that as a former liberal I thought I could never accept), all sorts of tests of that necessary sincerity, though God does help us with lingering unbelief if we ask for that too with the same sincerity.

In other words you lied and I called your bluff. It's funny how "Christians" try to make it sound so easy while hiding a whole lot of other conditions.

Remember what you said:


But you are welcome to join us any time by simply asking God to save you

In fact I can't seriously want something that makes no sense to me, nor can I say that I will automatically accept any beliefs you choose to tell me are essential. So I guess that your hidden conditions make it far from "simple".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 2:55 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 3:43 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16979
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 123 of 252 (814592)
07-11-2017 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Faith
07-11-2017 3:43 AM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.

Yes, well, one would think a person would know you can't ask God for something in such a cavalier way, but OK I wasn't specific enough and you can use the occasion to be right about something it would be better not to be right about.

In fact I did realise that you were lying. And what is it that it "would be better not to be right about" ? And why ?

quote:

No I wouldn't debate you on the meaning of the Bible.

In other words I am willing to back my claim up - and you are not.

Maybe you realise that misrepresenting a pathetically bad commentary is not exactly a good argument. Or maybe I am expecting too much of you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 3:43 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 4:23 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16979
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 125 of 252 (814595)
07-11-2017 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
07-11-2017 4:23 AM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
quote:

I'm sure it's a good thing that I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Certainly you don't like it when your ridiculous errors get brought to light.

But enough of that. Your attempt to deny that you are anti-science based on definition games and false pride in your own beliefs has failed. As anyone with any sense would expect. And that really is an end to that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 4:23 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 5:02 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16979
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 127 of 252 (814597)
07-11-2017 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Faith
07-11-2017 5:02 AM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
What lies ?

I guess you mean - as usual - truths you don't like.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 5:02 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 5:09 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16979
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 130 of 252 (814601)
07-11-2017 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Faith
07-11-2017 5:09 AM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Again there is no lie.

But since you insist on refusing to shut up let us look at what a modern online dictionary says that "science' means:

dictionary,com


1.
a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws:
the mathematical sciences.
2.
systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
3.
any of the branches of natural or physical science.
4.
systematized knowledge in general.
5.
knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.
6.
a particular branch of knowledge.
7.
skill, especially reflecting a precise application of facts or principles; proficiency.

When we describe you as anti-science we usually refer to the second meaning, although the third could equally well apply. And yet your argument refuses to even accept that those definitions exist.

So yes, you are playing a definition game by ignoring definitions that are much more common and more applicable before we even get into the question of whether your belief counts as knowledge.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 07-11-2017 5:09 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16979
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 147 of 252 (814736)
07-12-2017 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Faith
07-12-2017 12:00 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
It doesn't matter since your definition game is crucial to your argument and has already failed (apparently your "discernment" failed to notice the obvious there)

But:

quote:

Sorry, you are wrong. As I keep saying, the ability to believe the Bible is the word of God is a supernatural gift from God that overrides the fallen intellect.

Is there any sensible reason to believe this ? Or is it just another product of a "fallen" intellect ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 07-12-2017 12:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 07-12-2017 12:51 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16979
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 151 of 252 (814741)
07-12-2017 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Faith
07-12-2017 12:51 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
quote:

The sensible reason to believe it is that it would benefit you greatly if you did.

You say that but you offer no reason to think that there is any real benefit. And believing things in the hope of benefit is hardly a good way to find the truth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 07-12-2017 12:51 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Faith, posted 07-12-2017 1:08 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16979
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 154 of 252 (814747)
07-12-2017 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Faith
07-12-2017 1:08 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Maybe you find it a benefit to see distorting and twisting the Bible as suoernatural insight - but I don't think that it is good for anything more than your pride.

Add in your notably poor judgement in general and your frequent errors and I have to say I am better off as I am. Even if Christianity turned out to be true.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Faith, posted 07-12-2017 1:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16979
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 176 of 252 (816333)
08-03-2017 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by CRR
08-02-2017 6:28 PM


Re: Human-chimp non homologues
quote:

Strangely I put more weight on the papers published in Science and Nature than on your BLAT experiments.

Now that is just not true.

The abstract of the Nature paper at The evolutionary origin of orphan genes agrees with Taq


...however, de novo evolution out of non-coding genomic regions is emerging as an important additional mechanism. This process appears to provide raw material continuously for the evolution of new gene functions, which can become relevant for lineage-specific adaptations.

And the abstract of the Science paper Human-specific gene ARHGAP11B promotes basal progenitor amplification and neocortex expansion

states


ARHGAP11B arose from partial duplication of ARHGAP11A (which encodes a Rho guanosine triphosphatase–activating protein) on the human lineage after separation from the chimpanzee lineage

So you are disagreeing with both papers, and quite obviously so.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by CRR, posted 08-02-2017 6:28 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
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