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Author Topic:   Micro v. Macro Creationist Challenge
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1038 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 22 of 252 (812385)
06-16-2017 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by aristotle
06-16-2017 8:43 AM


Wrong already
"Elementary statistical theory shows that the probability of 200 successive mutations being successful is then (½) , or one chance out of 10 . The number 10 , if written out, would be "one" followed by sixty "zeros." In other words, the chance that a 200- component organism could be formed by mutation and natural selection is less than one chance out of a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion!" - Henry M. Morris, Ph.D.

But you and Henry Morris are wrong. Check this out:

Making Genetic Networks Operate Robustly: Unintelligent Non-design Suffices, by Professor Garrett Odell (online lecture):

Abstract: Mathematical computer models of two ancient and famous genetic networks act early in embryos of many different species to determine the body plan. Models revealed these networks to be astonishingly robust, despite their 'unintelligent design.' This examines the use of mathematical models to shed light on how biological, pattern-forming gene networks operate and how thoughtless, haphazard, non-design produces networks whose robustness seems inspired, begging the question what else unintelligent non-design might be capable of.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by aristotle, posted 06-16-2017 8:43 AM aristotle has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1038 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 33 of 252 (813324)
06-26-2017 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by CRR
06-26-2017 12:23 AM


Re: advantageous mutations
From TalkOrigins:

Claim CB121:

J. B. S. Haldane calculated that new genes become fixed only after 300 generations due to the cost of natural selection (Haldane 1957). Since humans and apes differ in 4.8 × 107 genes, there has not been enough time for difference to accumulate. Only 1,667 nucleotide substitutions in genes could have occurred if their divergence was ten million years ago.

Source:

ReMine, Walter J., 1993. The Biotic Message, St. Paul Science, Inc.

Response:

Haldane's "cost of natural selection" stemmed from an invalid simplifying assumption in his calculations. He divided by a fitness constant in a way that invalidated his assumption of constant population size, and his cost of selection is an artifact of the changed population size. He also assumed that two mutations would take twice as long to reach fixation as one, but because of sexual recombination, the two can be selected simultaneously and both reach fixation sooner. With corrected calculations, the cost disappears (Wallace 1991; Williams n.d.).

Haldane's paper was published in 1957, and Haldane himself said, "I am quite aware that my conclusions will probably need drastic revision" (Haldane 1957, 523). It is irresponsible not to consider the revision that has occurred in the forty years since his paper was published.

ReMine (1993), who promotes the claim, makes several invalid assumptions. His model is contradicted by the following:
--The vast majority of differences would probably be due to genetic drift, not selection.
--Many genes would have been linked with genes that are selected and thus would have hitchhiked with them to fixation.
--Many mutations, such as those due to unequal crossing over, affect more than one codon.
--Human and ape genes both would be diverging from the common ancestor, doubling the difference.
--ReMine's computer simulation supposedly showing the negative influence of Haldane's dilemma assumed a population size of only six (Musgrave 1999).

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB121.html


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by CRR, posted 06-26-2017 12:23 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by CRR, posted 06-26-2017 7:17 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1038 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 67 of 252 (814132)
07-04-2017 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by RAZD
07-04-2017 7:11 PM


On bones
In my first osteology class in graduate school we studied the human skeleton in minute detail. We knew every bone, we knew left from right, we knew ages, sizes, sexes, and a lot about races.

Then the teacher brought out the ape and monkey bones.

We found that we know pretty much everything about them as well, with some adjustments for dimorphism and species. But the important part--the bones were all the same as in humans!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by RAZD, posted 07-04-2017 7:11 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1038 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 71 of 252 (814250)
07-05-2017 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Taq
07-05-2017 11:31 AM


Creationists aren't doing any science which is why their claims are not accepted.

In spite of what they often claim, creationists are anti-science.

They have to be, as science refutes so many of their claims and beliefs.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Taq, posted 07-05-2017 11:31 AM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by CRR, posted 07-09-2017 7:54 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1038 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 79 of 252 (814445)
07-09-2017 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by CRR
07-09-2017 7:54 PM


So all these people are "anti-science"?

Creationists who believe in a global flood during historic times and a young earth, and who ignore and misrepresent the vast amounts of scientific evidence to the contrary, are anti-science. Doesn't matter who they are.

If they use the scientific method to do science, they could claim to be scientists. If they use scripture and belief to oppose science what else would you call them?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by CRR, posted 07-09-2017 7:54 PM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by CRR, posted 07-09-2017 11:29 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1038 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 82 of 252 (814448)
07-09-2017 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by CRR
07-09-2017 11:29 PM


They all use/used the scientific method to do science. They are scientists. If you didn't recognise the names you could have looked them up.

Science is a methodology, not a set of dogma. Any theory in science is open to question. If you deny that you are anti science.

Creationists do not follow the scientific method wherever it leads. We have had more than one creationist on this very site who stated that if scientific evidence contradicted the bible, then the scientific evidence was wrong--no matter what.

That's anti-science, and its very common among creationists even though they usually try to deny it.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by CRR, posted 07-09-2017 11:29 PM CRR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 4:10 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1038 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 139 of 252 (814629)
07-11-2017 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Stile
07-11-2017 11:04 AM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Science works because it never stops asking "why?" and it will only accept honest, real answers.

And that is why creationists are so often anti-science--they can't accept some of those honest, real answers.

Such as a very old earth and no global flood during historic times.

The gyrations they go through to ignore, misrepresent and otherwise trash the scientific evidence in these two example are amazing to watch. And very telling.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Stile, posted 07-11-2017 11:04 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1038 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 201 of 252 (816842)
08-11-2017 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by CRR
08-11-2017 5:29 PM


Re: Non homologous genes between humans and chimps
No, because I don't think they evolved from a common ancestor.

Ignoring religious beliefs for the moment, from whence did chimps and humans then evolve?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by CRR, posted 08-11-2017 5:29 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
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