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Author Topic:   Micro v. Macro Creationist Challenge
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 83 of 252 (814449)
07-10-2017 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Coyote
07-09-2017 11:35 PM


Science means knowledge, period.
Creationists do not follow the scientific method wherever it leads. We have had more than one creationist on this very site who stated that if scientific evidence contradicted the bible, then the scientific evidence was wrong--no matter what.

That's anti-science, and its very common among creationists even though they usually try to deny it.

Not at all anti-science. If you absolutely know something is the truth revealed by God, it can't be anti-science to treat it as the known truth. It's just as scientific as any source of knowledge, or truth about the physical world, and far more reliable than any conclusions the fallen human mind can come up with. "Science" simply means "knowledge," you know. The scientific method is always followed where it's the only source of knowledge. The deniers are those who deny the Biblical revelation.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Coyote, posted 07-09-2017 11:35 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 93 by Stile, posted 07-10-2017 2:18 PM Faith has responded
 Message 98 by Taq, posted 07-10-2017 5:23 PM Faith has responded
 Message 132 by CRR, posted 07-11-2017 6:09 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 94 of 252 (814529)
07-10-2017 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Stile
07-10-2017 2:18 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Science takes all the available information, and forms a theory that explains all of it.

On some level, your statement can be very-strangely sort-of similar, but not really.

The difference, of course, is that nothing discovered by fallen human intellect is absolutely true, while God's revelations are. And it is admitted too that it's all open to revision, as it should be. But God's revelations are not open to revision, because He's omniscient.

That is, if you take what you 'absolutely know' and remove any other contradicting information... you can take that 'smaller pool' of information and form a theory that explains all of that 'smaller pool' of data.

The 'but not really' part is that science never does this.

1. Science never "absolutely knows" anything, and questions/tests everything.

As it should and must because human intellect is not infallible. But if you have knowledge direct from God that knowledge IS infallible and everything else MUST yield to it. Creationists do of course try to prove what we can of the physical implications of God's rather scanty revelations on these subjects, but we also have to yield to the limitations of our human minds in the end and take God's side on any subject we don't fully understand. That's the only reasonable to thing to do with knowledge given by God. Those who allow themselves to be persuaded of the results of science against their own understanding of God's revelelation, and try to reconcile the two, may be sincere enough, but they underestimate the fallibility of their own judgment and of science itself. Better to be at odds with all the scientific world than deny or try to rationalize away what we truly believe to be what God has revealed.

1. Science never "absolutely knows" anything, and questions/tests everything. Constantly. There is no fear of being wrong and correcting previous mistakes within science. It's actually a big part of the self-correcting mechanism of honest progress.

This is true for the hard sciences, and none of them that I know of contradict the Bible at all. But the sciences of the prehistoric past are the problem since none of the past can be subjected to testing, being all one-time events that can only be interpreted. The radiometric dating systems seem to be able to reach into the past but since they contradict the Bible, as I say above, the Bible must be taken as the truth over them.

2. Science always takes 'all the available information.' If you're knowingly ignoring certain information... especially information that would skew the results you're currently getting into something else if you included it... then you're definitely anti-science.

But science dismisses the testimony of thousands of honest people to supernatural events, to demons, to miracles, so how can it be taken as "honest?" This shows it to be nothing but a prejudice. If the Bible is God's word then it tells the truth about all those things, and if it tells the truth about those things it ALSO tells the truth about the physical world. Sorry, but you cannot say there wasn't a worldwide Flood as described in Genesis and call it "science" when God has said otherwise. It's not science, it's a lie and it's science itself that is "knowingly ignoring certain information... especially information that would skew the results you're currently getting into something else if you included it... then you're definitely anti-science." Since the Biblical revelation would certainly "skew the results you're currently getting into something else if you included it..." then it's you who are anti-science. If God's word is God's word you are the one who is anti-science.

The scientific method is always followed where it's the only source of knowledge.

Science allows for all sources of knowledge. It looks at all information regardless of how it was understood to be knowledge.

It certainly should if it pretends to be science at all. But since it denies the testimony of the Bible this is unfortunately not true.

The deniers are those who deny the Biblical revelation.

Biblical revelation was included in science until it was proven to be extremely unreliable.

The fact is that it wasn't. The unreliability exists only in the fallen human mind, which trusted in its own fallen judgments over God's. It's the curse of the Fall to put your own mind above God's and that's why science has gone on without God and obeyed the devil instead.

Often, the Biblical revelation did not align with reality. Therefore, the Biblical revelation was not factual... it wasn't an accurate description of real things... it wasn't knowledge. It was imagination.

Nope, that's all the failure of human ability to think things through, giving up too soon, accepting inferior ideas for evidence and so on. Holding on to the Biblical revelation would have been difficult in the face of the arrogant certainties pronounced by science about the past (not the hard sciences, just the sciences of the past), but it's always difficult to uphold God's truth against "the world, the flesh and the devil," it takes guts to do that in the teeth of "scientific certainty." I'm not only subjected to "scientific" denunciations and ridicule as stupid for putting the Bible above science, I'm even subjected to that from such Christians who've given in to their own fallible minds and the scientific establishment. Again, I'm ONLY talking about the sciences of the past. Not physics, not chemistry, not medicine, not astronomy, etc.

You (or anyone else) are free and encouraged to test it again, though. If you can show that Biblical revelation is, indeed, knowledge... science will accept it again and correct all it's issues. That is the self-correcting nature of science.

I've seen Old Earth Geology and Evolutionary Biology overturned time and time again by creationist arguments including my own, but because there is no way to test the sciences of the past it's the biases of the status quo that prevail no matter what. The idealistic vision of science that you are touting here, that others also keep holding up as the model, does NOT apply to the sciences of the past which is all conjecture, guesswork, imaginative reconstruction, leaps in the dark and castles in the air, because it CANNOT be proved. The Bible gives us enough facts for a start: the human race began with one couple created directly by God with no human precursors for starters, there was no death before the Fall, and there WAS a worldwide Flood about 2500 years ago. If you deny those facts you are just floating in mental goo. It's really amazing how much seeming Fact can be conjured up out of mere mental goo.

If you cannot test it, though.
If you cannot show that it reliably describes reality... then science cannot use it.
Science only uses that information that reliably describes reality. Science only uses knowledge.

You've spun a lot of talk here with the apparent intention of circumventing the claim that the Bible IS knowledge. You might as well just deny it outright as most here do. But the fact is that if it's God's word it IS knowledge, incontrovertible knowledge, and God's omniscience trumps fallible human science. God's word is meant to be believed spiritually, it can't be tested by physical scientific means, though it certainly speaks on physical realities. You either recognize it or you don't. Since science doesn't recognize it -- which is sad considering that there are Christians who do science too -- science has to be false when it claims to know things that contradict God.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Stile, posted 07-10-2017 2:18 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 99 of 252 (814539)
07-10-2017 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Taq
07-10-2017 5:23 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
That isn't what I said. I'm talking about KNOWING something is the absolute truth. Sorry you've never had the experience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Taq, posted 07-10-2017 5:23 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 101 of 252 (814543)
07-10-2017 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by JonF
07-10-2017 5:35 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Oh dear, another tedious fallacy. Everything I've said is about GOD's own revelation, and all of it is true as stated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by JonF, posted 07-10-2017 5:35 PM JonF has responded

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 105 of 252 (814555)
07-10-2017 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Tangle
07-10-2017 5:43 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Only a leftist wouldn't know the difference between the delusions of mental patients and the truth of God's word.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Tangle, posted 07-10-2017 5:43 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Taq, posted 07-10-2017 6:22 PM Faith has responded
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 108 of 252 (814560)
07-10-2017 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Taq
07-10-2017 6:22 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Sorry, the Bible was written by human beings UNDER THE INSPIRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. That's what makes it God's word.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Taq, posted 07-10-2017 6:22 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 109 of 252 (814561)
07-10-2017 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by JonF
07-10-2017 6:23 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
No, I mean the obvious incontrovertible meaning of the Bible as interpreted by normal ordinary readers -- believers of course -- with the exception of a very few difficult passages. I've listened to thousands of Bible preachers and exegetes by now and the Bible overall is NOT hard to understand and the difficulties of interpretation NOT many for BELIEVERS. Unbelievers come up with all kinds of dumb stuff but they don't count.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by JonF, posted 07-10-2017 6:23 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by JonF, posted 07-10-2017 6:48 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 112 of 252 (814571)
07-10-2017 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by JonF
07-10-2017 6:48 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Sorry, you can't be a believer unless God is guiding you. It's "not by the will of man" that we believe but by the will of God. So our belief is NOT subjective and fallible. And the Church is a corporate body, no one member's interpretation has any particular weight, it's the judgment of the body of believers that determines our understanding.

Sorrrreeee. I know how much you hate to think we know something you don't, but the fact is that we do.

There is no such thing as a valid critique of God's word.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by JonF, posted 07-10-2017 6:48 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by JonF, posted 07-10-2017 8:42 PM Faith has responded
 Message 115 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2017 12:30 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 114 of 252 (814577)
07-10-2017 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by JonF
07-10-2017 8:42 PM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Doesn't work that way. God does it all or it's not valid. You can't believe the Bible is God's word unless He causes you to believe it.

Jesus said: "Without me ye can do nothing."

"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory" (Ephesians 1:11-12).

"The LORD does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths" (Psalm 135:6).

"The LORD works out everything to its proper end—even the wicked for a day of disaster" (Proverbs 16:4).

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30).

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by JonF, posted 07-10-2017 8:42 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 116 of 252 (814584)
07-11-2017 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by PaulK
07-11-2017 12:30 AM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Since you are an unbeliever you have no way to understand what it means that belief is a gift of God who makes the Bible intelligible. Yes we still have to drag around the flesh so alone we can't be sure to interpret the Bible infallibly, but the church body as a whole can be counted on to be guided to the truth by God himself. Sorry you are not in a position to understand. But you are welcome to join us any time by simply asking God to save you. If not, well, so be it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2017 12:30 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2017 2:42 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 119 of 252 (814587)
07-11-2017 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by PaulK
07-11-2017 2:42 AM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Since you are unable to recognize an obvious misreading and obviously misread it yourself, end of subject.

You have to desire salvation from the heart, ask for it with some persevering sincerity and be willing to accept some things that right now you don't accept (I had to accept lots of things that as a former liberal I thought I could never accept), all sorts of tests of that necessary sincerity, though God does help us with lingering unbelief if we ask for that too with the same sincerity. Although I'd be happy to welcome you into the kingdom, with much joy and even some fanfare, I think your approach needs a little work. Let's say I doubt your sincerity. But I could very happily be wrong.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2017 2:42 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2017 3:13 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 120 of 252 (814588)
07-11-2017 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Tangle
07-11-2017 2:32 AM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Yes, I think I got your point, but my point is that the ability to distinguish between mental illness and the truth of God's word would persuade you of the uselessness of the scientific method in this case. God gives the knowledge in this case, there is no need for the methods of fallen intellect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2017 2:32 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 122 of 252 (814590)
07-11-2017 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by PaulK
07-11-2017 3:13 AM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
Yes, well, one would think a person would know you can't ask God for something in such a cavalier way, but OK I wasn't specific enough and you can use the occasion to be right about something it would be better not to be right about.

No I wouldn't debate you on the meaning of the Bible.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2017 3:13 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2017 3:58 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 124 of 252 (814593)
07-11-2017 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by PaulK
07-11-2017 3:58 AM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
I'm sure it's a good thing that I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Enjoy your snark for whatever it's worth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2017 3:58 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2017 4:45 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 126 of 252 (814596)
07-11-2017 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by PaulK
07-11-2017 4:45 AM


Re: Science means knowledge, period.
I shall try to savor your lies.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2017 4:45 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2017 5:07 AM Faith has responded

  
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